Ottoman Pala

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2008, 06:40 PM

Thank you for posting that example Rand! One cannot deny these are beautiful swords and while the lavish mounts may be considered ostentatious by some, as artwork thier effect is pretty amazing.
Perhaps you might recall the Islamic pamphlet I mentioned in my post from yesterday, I think it was Rich Wagners collection but since from memory, who knows

I mentioned in my earlier post also that I thought this might be an old blade that may have been embellished for either presentation or diplomatic gift. Perhaps I might ask for your opinion on that idea.

Thanks very much,
Jim

VANDOO · 24th January 2008, 07:06 PM

JUDGEING FROM THE OBVIOUS GRINDER MARKS SEEN NEAR THE ENGRAVING I WOULD DEFINITELY BE SUSPECIOUS OF THE BLADE BEING TAMPERED WITH. IF THE BLADE IS OF GOOD QUALITY AND OLD I CAN'T TELL FROM A PICTURE. AN EXPERT COULD PROBABLY TELL MORE IF IN HAND AND COULD ALSO SEE IF THE CORAL AND TURQUOISE WERE OF THE RIGHT KIND WERE GOOD OLD PIECES OR NOT. IN ONE PICTURE THERE IS ONE PIECE OF CORAL MISSING WHICH IS A GOOD SIGN.

CONSIDERING THE PRICE THIS BROUGHT AND PRICES STATED OF OTHER SALES IT IS LIKELY SOME FORGED EXAMPLES HAVE BEEN MADE OVER THE YEARS. THIS HAS HAPPENED WITH OTHER EXPENSIVE SWORDS THAT WERE IN DEMAND OFTEN SEVERAL TIMES DURING DIFFERENT PERIODS ON THE OLD ONES. I DO HOPE THE BUYER GOT HIS MONEYS WORTH AND ENJOYS HIS SWORD, BUT IF IT WAS JUST BOUGHT FOR RESALE OR INVESTMENT PURPOSES THE SWORD IS NOT IMPORTANT JUST THE CASH PROFIT OR FUTURE VALUE.

rand · 24th January 2008, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you for posting that example Rand! One cannot deny these are beautiful swords and while the lavish mounts may be considered ostentatious by some, as artwork thier effect is pretty amazing.
Perhaps you might recall the Islamic pamphlet I mentioned in my post from yesterday, I think it was Rich Wagners collection but since from memory, who knows

I mentioned in my earlier post also that I thought this might be an old blade that may have been embellished for either presentation or diplomatic gift. Perhaps I might ask for your opinion on that idea.

Thanks very much,
Jim

Hey Jim,

Very difficult from the photos' to make an opinion of the blade in question, but it certainly looks to be a period blade and of the period or earlier than the scabbard. Would certainly agree that the gold koftgrari is most llikely a later addition, also am of the opinion it makes little difference to the swords value.

Its surprising how crude the workmanship is on these 18/19th blades are and yet they are in high demand. It makes me wonder what it is we do not know.

Have heard that these swords may have been worn by high ranking officers (generals) for parade or court but have no published text to corroborate this.

Would also keep an open mind in that the Polish swords after the 16th C. may have had influence on the Ottoman swords.

rand

rand · 24th January 2008, 07:25 PM

photo of the Prophets sword from Yucels book that is Topkapi. the scabbard is gold with rubies and turquoise.

According to Tahsin Oz the scabbard/hilt are 16th century additions

rand

Jim McDougall · 24th January 2008, 10:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rand

Hey Jim,

Very difficult from the photos' to make an opinion of the blade in question, but it certainly looks to be a period blade and of the period or earlier than the scabbard. Would certainly agree that the gold koftgrari is most llikely a later addition, also am of the opinion it makes little difference to the swords value.

Its surprising how crude the workmanship is on these 18/19th blades are and yet they are in high demand. It makes me wonder what it is we do not know.

Have heard that these swords may have been worn by high ranking officers (generals) for parade or court but have no published text to corroborate this.

Would also keep an open mind in that the Polish swords after the 16th C. may have had influence on the Ottoman swords.

rand

Hi Rand,
Thank you so much for responding, very much appreciated !
Very interesting example you posted from Yucels book, especially that the scabbard and mounts were later additions.
I think this may suggest that older blades might have been remounted, especially if they were important blades as obviously seen with this one.
Do you think that trophy blades might have been remounted in the same manner for presentation and awarded to generals?
I know I have mentioned this before, actually, yesterday, and have still considered it might have some bearing.

All the best and thanks again !
Jim

rand · 25th January 2008, 05:33 PM

Hey Jim,

Would certainly agree with you that older blades have been remounted, there are ample examples of this. This auction is one good illustration of a remounted blade. http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?sample=3162

Have no direct evidence to speculate on swords for generals, an article on Islamic presentation swords/arms would be illuminating and interesting.

rand

Battara · 25th January 2008, 08:11 PM

Sorry I'm late folks -

Hi Ariel and all:

The koftgari I agree is a later addition as Rand said. I took a look at the pictures and the quality is more in keeping with that commonly coming out of India now. I think it may be that it is a restoration based on the remnents of what was originally there (I would hope anyway

) and if so I would call it a restoration. As restorers they may have had to re-cross hatch the area to have sharper grooves to "catch" the koftgari. This would of course not be true inlay but koftgari on the surface.

eftihis · 6th February 2008, 01:54 PM

Hallo, the photos below are from the book "portrait types of the midway plaisance" printed in St. Louis in 1894. The book is a "collection of photographs of individual types of various nations from all parts of the world who represented, in the department of ethnology, the manners, customs, dress, religions, music and other distinctive traits and peculiarities of their race", and the photos have been taken at the 6 months of the Worlds Columbian exposition. There many nice photos, with great costumes but some confusing things between the dress and who wears it: Turkish dress by Jews, Greek dress by an Albanian, A Bashibuzuk by a greek, a Janissary by an Armenian! It seems that some of the "models" for the dresses were mostly professional actor-like characters from an area where many ethnic groups lived, and felt free to wear whatever costume from their area...
Anyway, on the page of the 2 photos below the title is: NICHAN (Armenian) and the description states: ..."Mr. Nichan, the JAnizary, is an Armenian, born at Savaz, Armenia, about 500 miles from Constantinople. He was one of the life guards of the late Sultan Abdul Aziz (he died 1876)................The great carved sword he wears, sheathed in a beautiful scabbard set with jewels and richly ornamented, was presented to him by the Sultan for meritorious services"
Therefore we have a proof that these swords were made untill recently, ie at least untill arround 1870s. And here is an example for what they were used for, ie as presentation swords.

rand · 6th February 2008, 02:29 PM

Great Post Eftihis!!!

Being made as a gift for a guard offers some possible explanations for the techniques used in the manufacture of these scabbards. Have handled four of these swords and three had earlier blades while one sword with a short dramatically curving blade was newly made when the scabbard was made.

Believe the earliest blade of the four was dated 1714 and the most recent was in the 1840's. The sword dated in the 1840's was a sharply curved short shamshir style blade, the other three blades were all earlier kilij blades. They all had copper scabbards / hilts, that had a silver wash with gold wash over the silver. All had hundreds pf coral and turquoise held in low quality made bezels. All four scabbards were about the same quality of craftsmanship which begs the question of was that craftsmanship of a very similar quality maintained over a 120 plus year span of time? Or were all these swords assembled in a shorter period of time from both older and new at the time blades.

Whats your opinion?

rand

24th January 2008, 07:25 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Prophets Sword photo of the Prophets sword from Yucels book that is Topkapi. the scabbard is gold with rubies and turquoise. According to Tahsin Oz the scabbard/hilt are 16th century additions rand Attached Images

25th January 2008, 05:33 PM	#6
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Remounted Older Blades Hey Jim, Would certainly agree with you that older blades have been remounted, there are ample examples of this. This auction is one good illustration of a remounted blade. http://www.artfact.com/catalog/viewLot.cfm?sample=3162 Have no direct evidence to speculate on swords for generals, an article on Islamic presentation swords/arms would be illuminating and interesting. rand Attached Images

6th February 2008, 01:54 PM	#8
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	Hallo, the photos below are from the book "portrait types of the midway plaisance" printed in St. Louis in 1894. The book is a "collection of photographs of individual types of various nations from all parts of the world who represented, in the department of ethnology, the manners, customs, dress, religions, music and other distinctive traits and peculiarities of their race", and the photos have been taken at the 6 months of the Worlds Columbian exposition. There many nice photos, with great costumes but some confusing things between the dress and who wears it: Turkish dress by Jews, Greek dress by an Albanian, A Bashibuzuk by a greek, a Janissary by an Armenian! It seems that some of the "models" for the dresses were mostly professional actor-like characters from an area where many ethnic groups lived, and felt free to wear whatever costume from their area... Anyway, on the page of the 2 photos below the title is: NICHAN (Armenian) and the description states: ..."Mr. Nichan, the JAnizary, is an Armenian, born at Savaz, Armenia, about 500 miles from Constantinople. He was one of the life guards of the late Sultan Abdul Aziz (he died 1876)................The great carved sword he wears, sheathed in a beautiful scabbard set with jewels and richly ornamented, was presented to him by the Sultan for meritorious services" Therefore we have a proof that these swords were made untill recently, ie at least untill arround 1870s. And here is an example for what they were used for, ie as presentation swords. Attached Images

6th February 2008, 02:29 PM	#9
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Pala Great Post Eftihis!!! Being made as a gift for a guard offers some possible explanations for the techniques used in the manufacture of these scabbards. Have handled four of these swords and three had earlier blades while one sword with a short dramatically curving blade was newly made when the scabbard was made. Believe the earliest blade of the four was dated 1714 and the most recent was in the 1840's. The sword dated in the 1840's was a sharply curved short shamshir style blade, the other three blades were all earlier kilij blades. They all had copper scabbards / hilts, that had a silver wash with gold wash over the silver. All had hundreds pf coral and turquoise held in low quality made bezels. All four scabbards were about the same quality of craftsmanship which begs the question of was that craftsmanship of a very similar quality maintained over a 120 plus year span of time? Or were all these swords assembled in a shorter period of time from both older and new at the time blades. Whats your opinion? rand

24th January 2008, 06:40 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Thank you for posting that example Rand! One cannot deny these are beautiful swords and while the lavish mounts may be considered ostentatious by some, as artwork thier effect is pretty amazing. Perhaps you might recall the Islamic pamphlet I mentioned in my post from yesterday, I think it was Rich Wagners collection but since from memory, who knows I mentioned in my earlier post also that I thought this might be an old blade that may have been embellished for either presentation or diplomatic gift. Perhaps I might ask for your opinion on that idea. Thanks very much, Jim

24th January 2008, 07:06 PM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	JUDGEING FROM THE OBVIOUS GRINDER MARKS SEEN NEAR THE ENGRAVING I WOULD DEFINITELY BE SUSPECIOUS OF THE BLADE BEING TAMPERED WITH. IF THE BLADE IS OF GOOD QUALITY AND OLD I CAN'T TELL FROM A PICTURE. AN EXPERT COULD PROBABLY TELL MORE IF IN HAND AND COULD ALSO SEE IF THE CORAL AND TURQUOISE WERE OF THE RIGHT KIND WERE GOOD OLD PIECES OR NOT. IN ONE PICTURE THERE IS ONE PIECE OF CORAL MISSING WHICH IS A GOOD SIGN. CONSIDERING THE PRICE THIS BROUGHT AND PRICES STATED OF OTHER SALES IT IS LIKELY SOME FORGED EXAMPLES HAVE BEEN MADE OVER THE YEARS. THIS HAS HAPPENED WITH OTHER EXPENSIVE SWORDS THAT WERE IN DEMAND OFTEN SEVERAL TIMES DURING DIFFERENT PERIODS ON THE OLD ONES. I DO HOPE THE BUYER GOT HIS MONEYS WORTH AND ENJOYS HIS SWORD, BUT IF IT WAS JUST BOUGHT FOR RESALE OR INVESTMENT PURPOSES THE SWORD IS NOT IMPORTANT JUST THE CASH PROFIT OR FUTURE VALUE.

25th January 2008, 08:11 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,272	Sorry I'm late folks - Hi Ariel and all: The koftgari I agree is a later addition as Rand said. I took a look at the pictures and the quality is more in keeping with that commonly coming out of India now. I think it may be that it is a restoration based on the remnents of what was originally there (I would hope anyway ) and if so I would call it a restoration. As restorers they may have had to re-cross hatch the area to have sharper grooves to "catch" the koftgari. This would of course not be true inlay but koftgari on the surface.