Burmese, East Asian Mak Chopper?

fearn · 23rd January 2008, 02:32 AM

Here's an another off-the-wall idea: it's a rochin, from the Matayoshi tradition of kobudo. I just saw this a few days ago, and thanks for bringing this thread up where I could make the connection.

Check out this YouTube video , and look at the weapon nearest the teacher's right knee. It's a long-handled, short-bladed, dao-like weapon about the length of the man's forearm, and the back is wavy. Matayoshi reportedly learned the weapon in China. For those interested, the "dao" rochin is discussed around 4:15 into the video.

Just a thought,

F

Tim Simmons · 23rd January 2008, 07:46 PM

fearn, interesting thought.
China does have a border with Afghanistan and India. The weapon in the video is very much heavier than the two knives we are looking at here so I would dismiss that as an origin. However there could be some link in the weapon from Oriental arms archive, ref- the guard as seen on many Chinese border lands Dha/Dao. I think you have really opened things. One could see a relation between the Nepalese sacrificial knife from a link in the thread, to the most recently post knife and mine. We could be looking at a meeting of south and east. The one with a guard does seem to suggest a utility knife or possible weapon.

In an earlier time without todays set political borders the Afghan/Chinese border would just be part of central Asia? does this add up?

The Nepalese sacrificial knife, just to refresh the memory. Think NE Nepal, Tibet, China and so on mixed up

http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...24192/en1.html

Tim Simmons · 23rd January 2008, 08:09 PM

Any idea what knives are used in the preparation of a sky burial? or am I really loosing it!!!!

Go to the section "disassembling the body" a few comments on the knife. Not very helpful but hint at a specialist tool?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial

Tim Simmons · 23rd January 2008, 09:26 PM

Before retiring for the night I would just like to add; you cannot deny that there is something here with the two examples shown.

katana · 23rd January 2008, 10:33 PM

Hi Tim,
did you notice this....

"......A kartika is a small, symbolic crescent knife or 'chopper', used in Buddhist ceremony. It symbolizes the severance of all material and worldly bonds and is crowned with a vajra or dorje, which is said to destroy ignorance, and leads to enlightenment. In Buddhist teachings, this tool is held in the right hand of Yama, the conqueror of death. It is also used in Feng Shui."

From this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartika_%28knife%29

And following on from that...
"....The Kartika (Skt.) or curved knife symbolises the cutting of conventional wisdom by the ultimate insight into emptiness. Is is usually present as a pair, together with the skullcup, filled with wisdom nectar. On a more simple level, the skull is a reminder of (our) impermanence. Between the knife and the handle is a makara-head, a mythical monster.[23]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6d

The chopper is one of the most prominent weapons used by Buddhism's angry deities, both male and female. Continuously brandished by them or simply carried in their hands, its purpose is to chop up disbelievers.

This curved flaying-knife is modeled on the Indian ' knife of the butchers', used for skinning animal hides. The gibbous crescent of its blade, which terminates in a sharp point or curved hook, combines the flaying implements of a cutting-knife and scraping blade, and the piercing activity of a dagger or pulling-hook. The blade's crescent is used for cutting through flesh and scraping it clean, separating the outer and inner as 'appearance and emptiness'. The sharp hook or point of the blade is used for the more delicate acts of flaying: the initial incising of the carcass, the pulling out of veins and tendons, and cutting around the orifices of the skin.

Regards David

fearn · 23rd January 2008, 10:55 PM

Skip. Point was already made. Fun discussion!

Tim Simmons · 24th January 2008, 05:39 PM

I have been thinking about these two knives all day. Perhaps they are just simple skinning and butchery knives from North India or Nepal and there abouts. They could come into collections through the great 19th century desire to hunt and obtain trophies, heads or hides. One thing for sure the Great White Hunter would not process the kill. The poor wallah that had to do the task may well have been vegetarian so a knife carrying symbols that nod to religious and spiritual cleansing would be good "Karma" and all that stuff. The knife could have relevance outside of working for the Great White Hope. In a world without large industrial meat production and many low caste people that may be vegetarian but still expected to process animals for meat and bone and leather, I think it only makes sense that the tools of the trade would have these symbols. All assuming the decorations do have the meanings discussed earlier.

One could google skinning knives and make very basic comparisons.

23rd January 2008, 07:46 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	fearn, interesting thought. China does have a border with Afghanistan and India. The weapon in the video is very much heavier than the two knives we are looking at here so I would dismiss that as an origin. However there could be some link in the weapon from Oriental arms archive, ref- the guard as seen on many Chinese border lands Dha/Dao. I think you have really opened things. One could see a relation between the Nepalese sacrificial knife from a link in the thread, to the most recently post knife and mine. We could be looking at a meeting of south and east. The one with a guard does seem to suggest a utility knife or possible weapon. In an earlier time without todays set political borders the Afghan/Chinese border would just be part of central Asia? does this add up? The Nepalese sacrificial knife, just to refresh the memory. Think NE Nepal, Tibet, China and so on mixed up http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...24192/en1.html Last edited by Tim Simmons; 23rd January 2008 at 08:26 PM.

23rd January 2008, 08:09 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Any idea what knives are used in the preparation of a sky burial? or am I really loosing it!!!! Go to the section "disassembling the body" a few comments on the knife. Not very helpful but hint at a specialist tool? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_burial Last edited by Tim Simmons; 23rd January 2008 at 08:19 PM.

23rd January 2008, 10:33 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Tim, did you notice this.... "......A kartika is a small, symbolic crescent knife or 'chopper', used in Buddhist ceremony. It symbolizes the severance of all material and worldly bonds and is crowned with a vajra or dorje, which is said to destroy ignorance, and leads to enlightenment. In Buddhist teachings, this tool is held in the right hand of Yama, the conqueror of death. It is also used in Feng Shui." From this... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kartika_%28knife%29 And following on from that... "....The Kartika (Skt.) or curved knife symbolises the cutting of conventional wisdom by the ultimate insight into emptiness. Is is usually present as a pair, together with the skullcup, filled with wisdom nectar. On a more simple level, the skull is a reminder of (our) impermanence. Between the knife and the handle is a makara-head, a mythical monster.[23]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ch%C3%B6d The chopper is one of the most prominent weapons used by Buddhism's angry deities, both male and female. Continuously brandished by them or simply carried in their hands, its purpose is to chop up disbelievers. This curved flaying-knife is modeled on the Indian ' knife of the butchers', used for skinning animal hides. The gibbous crescent of its blade, which terminates in a sharp point or curved hook, combines the flaying implements of a cutting-knife and scraping blade, and the piercing activity of a dagger or pulling-hook. The blade's crescent is used for cutting through flesh and scraping it clean, separating the outer and inner as 'appearance and emptiness'. The sharp hook or point of the blade is used for the more delicate acts of flaying: the initial incising of the carcass, the pulling out of veins and tendons, and cutting around the orifices of the skin. Regards David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 23rd January 2008 at 10:51 PM.

23rd January 2008, 02:32 AM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Here's an another off-the-wall idea: it's a rochin, from the Matayoshi tradition of kobudo. I just saw this a few days ago, and thanks for bringing this thread up where I could make the connection. Check out this YouTube video , and look at the weapon nearest the teacher's right knee. It's a long-handled, short-bladed, dao-like weapon about the length of the man's forearm, and the back is wavy. Matayoshi reportedly learned the weapon in China. For those interested, the "dao" rochin is discussed around 4:15 into the video. Just a thought, F

23rd January 2008, 09:26 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Before retiring for the night I would just like to add; you cannot deny that there is something here with the two examples shown.

23rd January 2008, 10:55 PM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Skip. Point was already made. Fun discussion!

24th January 2008, 05:39 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	I have been thinking about these two knives all day. Perhaps they are just simple skinning and butchery knives from North India or Nepal and there abouts. They could come into collections through the great 19th century desire to hunt and obtain trophies, heads or hides. One thing for sure the Great White Hunter would not process the kill. The poor wallah that had to do the task may well have been vegetarian so a knife carrying symbols that nod to religious and spiritual cleansing would be good "Karma" and all that stuff. The knife could have relevance outside of working for the Great White Hope. In a world without large industrial meat production and many low caste people that may be vegetarian but still expected to process animals for meat and bone and leather, I think it only makes sense that the tools of the trade would have these symbols. All assuming the decorations do have the meanings discussed earlier. One could google skinning knives and make very basic comparisons.