Archaic proto-, boy's- or miniature souvenir-kris?

[Flavio]

Wonderful piece Michael, I'd like to have one of this

[VVV]

Thanks for all comments.

Any additional ideas on what it is?
Jose, have you seen other kris of this, very small, size?

Michael

[Rick]

An 18 1/4" blade, close .
If yours is a Ganga Iras it would be the first archaic example I have ever seen .

[Bill]

Nice, Congrats. Smallest I've seen/heard was 17.5" but not surprised to see smaller. Not having a separate ganga is a surprise. The file work on the guard appears superior to most of this type. Perhaps it was enhanced later in life. Hard to tell from the pics, but it does appear that the "curves" have some wear. That would be consistent with my suspicions that these were a secondary weapon to finish & remove heads. For at least with the Bugis an ivory hilt was reserved as a special honor for bravery in battle.

[David]

I would have to see much closer pics before agreeing there is not a separate gonjo. Maybe even hold it to be sure.
I owned my very first Moro kris for many years before i discovered the separation line. On a blade as finely made as this one it can sometimes be hard to tell.
I think an ivory hilt would denote rank regardless of point of origin. However, I still have yet to see any Bugis weapon that would lead me to believe that these so-called archaic kris are Bugis in origin. They don't look like any provenanced Bugis keris i have ever seen. I will continue to see these as Moro until i see some substanial prove to the contrary. You can say it and say it Bill, but that don't necessarily make it so.
Also a blade with this depth of curves seems an unlikely choice for head removal. Now a mandau is a logical blade form for taking heads. Straight, flat on one side....chop!...head comes right off. I just don't see the basis for this suspicion.

[Bill]

I guess most swords would remove heads. Some better then others. The facts are that in the neighborhood this sword came from ritualistic or definitive headhunting was the norm. Certainly the head axe in Luzon had this purpose, but also hands & feet were sometimes removed. Pictures of some of these victims show quite a few wounds. So assuming by the time the head was removed, the fight was already over. The Padsumbalin Panabus seems to have been perfected for the task. While we can only speculate if the head axe & panabus developed as a tool first (likely) they both functioned for head removal. The barung would certainly do the task. So, the warriors took the heads with what they had. One first hand, account on the head removal comes from Captain David Woodard with the Bugis. He briefly describes a battle with 200 warriors on each side. Each side removes their wounded with the victors "quickly" removing the heads of 8 of the enemy & retrieving their own dead. His previous accounts describe the warfare as primarily blowguns & spears, but he notes the men carried keris & small curved swords (which one of his own men was hacked to death with). So with 200 warriors ready to shoot a poison dart or lob a spear at you, I would think you went to remove those heads as quickly as you could while you held the ground. What did they use David, you tell me? The keris, blowgun, spear or the small curvy sword. He doesn't mention them carrying the Mandau. I only use the Bugis as I can find no details of a Moro account, except that they removed the heads after the battle. I think that one problem you have for this area is that you think of it in post European boundaries instead of a very highly interactive area.

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill

I think that one problem you have for this area is that you think of it in post European boundaries instead of a very highly interactive area.

No Bill, really i don't, not at all. The problem i am having is that you are consistently presenting this thesis of yours without anything substantial to back it up with.
Of course these cultures all interacted with each other in varying degrees. Still they maintained much of their own cultural identities. The keris is a weapon of great diversity because of it's interpretation by these various cultures. But when i look at the Bugis interpretation of the keris i see nothing like Michael's "archaic" kris. And to my knowledge, though i could be wrong, these "archaic" kris are generally collected in Moro areas, not Bugis.
I have to admit, i have yet to read all of Capt. Woodward's account of his journey's, though i do intent to as it looks very interesting. It is available for an on-line read and download however.
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...MxY1YP_0-_nspA
I believe i have located his telling of the battle between the Parlow and the Dungally were 200 were on each side and 8 heads were taken, as you have mentioned. (Chapter 8, pg 36-37). There is no mention in that account of blowguns or any edged weapons for that matter (though i am sure they were present). Woodward does mention a musket which the Rajah insisted he carry and a swivel gun as well. It is only mentioned that 8 heads were taken, not how. Perhaps the small curved sword mentioned earlier in his book was the ticket afterall (btw, a curved sword and a curvy sword imply two different things to me. Which was it?). I doubt this curved sword was our "archaic kris" though. Since it bares such a strong resemblence to it's smaller keris cousin i would think that if Woodward's "curved sword" was our "archaic" keris was he would more likely have discribed it as just a larger crees.
BTW, i may have misinterpreted, but Woodward also mentions that spears were never thrown, but kept in hand.
"They never suffer their spears to go out of their hands, but strike their objects with great nicety."
So the warriors probably were not in danger of lobbed ones.
Oh, and i never meant to imply that the Bugis ever carried mandau. I was merely trying to point out that a weapon from this region that was really designed for taking off head has a much more logical design for the job than these "archaic" keris.

[Battara]

Originally Posted by VVV

Jose, have you seen other kris of this, very small, size?

This exact size, no, but this type of size yes. Yours is probably the earliest and smallest of the Moro kris I have seen.