Archaic proto-, boy's- or miniature souvenir-kris?

David · 20th January 2008, 03:35 AM

Michael, that is just plain sweet! A nice find.

Flavio · 20th January 2008, 01:41 PM

Wonderful piece Michael, I'd like to have one of this

VVV · 21st January 2008, 09:52 AM

Thanks for all comments.

Any additional ideas on what it is?
Jose, have you seen other kris of this, very small, size?

Michael

Rick · 21st January 2008, 04:15 PM

An 18 1/4" blade, close .

If yours is a Ganga Iras it would be the first archaic example I have ever seen .

Bill · 21st January 2008, 05:05 PM

Nice, Congrats. Smallest I've seen/heard was 17.5" but not surprised to see smaller. Not having a separate ganga is a surprise. The file work on the guard appears superior to most of this type. Perhaps it was enhanced later in life. Hard to tell from the pics, but it does appear that the "curves" have some wear. That would be consistent with my suspicions that these were a secondary weapon to finish & remove heads. For at least with the Bugis an ivory hilt was reserved as a special honor for bravery in battle.

David · 21st January 2008, 09:54 PM

I would have to see much closer pics before agreeing there is not a separate gonjo. Maybe even hold it to be sure.

I owned my very first Moro kris for many years before i discovered the separation line. On a blade as finely made as this one it can sometimes be hard to tell.
I think an ivory hilt would denote rank regardless of point of origin. However, I still have yet to see any Bugis weapon that would lead me to believe that these so-called archaic kris are Bugis in origin. They don't look like any provenanced Bugis keris i have ever seen. I will continue to see these as Moro until i see some substanial prove to the contrary. You can say it and say it Bill, but that don't necessarily make it so.

Also a blade with this depth of curves seems an unlikely choice for head removal. Now a mandau is a logical blade form for taking heads. Straight, flat on one side....chop!...head comes right off.

I just don't see the basis for this suspicion.

Bill · 22nd January 2008, 02:10 AM

I guess most swords would remove heads. Some better then others. The facts are that in the neighborhood this sword came from ritualistic or definitive headhunting was the norm. Certainly the head axe in Luzon had this purpose, but also hands & feet were sometimes removed. Pictures of some of these victims show quite a few wounds. So assuming by the time the head was removed, the fight was already over. The Padsumbalin Panabus seems to have been perfected for the task. While we can only speculate if the head axe & panabus developed as a tool first (likely) they both functioned for head removal. The barung would certainly do the task. So, the warriors took the heads with what they had. One first hand, account on the head removal comes from Captain David Woodard with the Bugis. He briefly describes a battle with 200 warriors on each side. Each side removes their wounded with the victors "quickly" removing the heads of 8 of the enemy & retrieving their own dead. His previous accounts describe the warfare as primarily blowguns & spears, but he notes the men carried keris & small curved swords (which one of his own men was hacked to death with). So with 200 warriors ready to shoot a poison dart or lob a spear at you, I would think you went to remove those heads as quickly as you could while you held the ground. What did they use David, you tell me? The keris, blowgun, spear or the small curvy sword. He doesn't mention them carrying the Mandau. I only use the Bugis as I can find no details of a Moro account, except that they removed the heads after the battle. I think that one problem you have for this area is that you think of it in post European boundaries instead of a very highly interactive area.

Battara · 22nd January 2008, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Jose, have you seen other kris of this, very small, size?

This exact size, no, but this type of size yes. Yours is probably the earliest and smallest of the Moro kris I have seen.

21st January 2008, 04:15 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Yes An 18 1/4" blade, close . If yours is a Ganga Iras it would be the first archaic example I have ever seen . Attached Images

20th January 2008, 03:35 AM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	Michael, that is just plain sweet! A nice find.

20th January 2008, 01:41 PM	#2
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Wonderful piece Michael, I'd like to have one of this

21st January 2008, 09:52 AM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for all comments. Any additional ideas on what it is? Jose, have you seen other kris of this, very small, size? Michael

21st January 2008, 05:05 PM	#5
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Nice, Congrats. Smallest I've seen/heard was 17.5" but not surprised to see smaller. Not having a separate ganga is a surprise. The file work on the guard appears superior to most of this type. Perhaps it was enhanced later in life. Hard to tell from the pics, but it does appear that the "curves" have some wear. That would be consistent with my suspicions that these were a secondary weapon to finish & remove heads. For at least with the Bugis an ivory hilt was reserved as a special honor for bravery in battle.

21st January 2008, 09:54 PM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,250	I would have to see much closer pics before agreeing there is not a separate gonjo. Maybe even hold it to be sure. I owned my very first Moro kris for many years before i discovered the separation line. On a blade as finely made as this one it can sometimes be hard to tell. I think an ivory hilt would denote rank regardless of point of origin. However, I still have yet to see any Bugis weapon that would lead me to believe that these so-called archaic kris are Bugis in origin. They don't look like any provenanced Bugis keris i have ever seen. I will continue to see these as Moro until i see some substanial prove to the contrary. You can say it and say it Bill, but that don't necessarily make it so. Also a blade with this depth of curves seems an unlikely choice for head removal. Now a mandau is a logical blade form for taking heads. Straight, flat on one side....chop!...head comes right off. I just don't see the basis for this suspicion.

22nd January 2008, 02:10 AM	#7
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	I guess most swords would remove heads. Some better then others. The facts are that in the neighborhood this sword came from ritualistic or definitive headhunting was the norm. Certainly the head axe in Luzon had this purpose, but also hands & feet were sometimes removed. Pictures of some of these victims show quite a few wounds. So assuming by the time the head was removed, the fight was already over. The Padsumbalin Panabus seems to have been perfected for the task. While we can only speculate if the head axe & panabus developed as a tool first (likely) they both functioned for head removal. The barung would certainly do the task. So, the warriors took the heads with what they had. One first hand, account on the head removal comes from Captain David Woodard with the Bugis. He briefly describes a battle with 200 warriors on each side. Each side removes their wounded with the victors "quickly" removing the heads of 8 of the enemy & retrieving their own dead. His previous accounts describe the warfare as primarily blowguns & spears, but he notes the men carried keris & small curved swords (which one of his own men was hacked to death with). So with 200 warriors ready to shoot a poison dart or lob a spear at you, I would think you went to remove those heads as quickly as you could while you held the ground. What did they use David, you tell me? The keris, blowgun, spear or the small curvy sword. He doesn't mention them carrying the Mandau. I only use the Bugis as I can find no details of a Moro account, except that they removed the heads after the battle. I think that one problem you have for this area is that you think of it in post European boundaries instead of a very highly interactive area.