Manual del Baratero - A Review

Chris Evans · 19th March 2005, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank

Chris,

I got interested in navajas after reading Sevillian stee. Really cool knives. Did you read it, what did you think of it and where can I buy a navaja. I live in Australia.

Best wishes
Frank

Hi Frank,

1. I have read that book and do not think that it is the kind of work that serious collectors or historians of knives would use as a reference.

If you want to become acquainted with navajas you should read the works of the Spanish authority, Rafael Martinez del Peral y Forton. Unfortunately most of his works have as yet not been translated into English, save one: "Navajas Antiguas - Las Mejores Piezas de Coleccion", a magnificent book of 237 colour photo plates, with captions in Sanish-English and illustrating navajas from the era in which they were used in earnest. The standard reference on the subject is "La Navaja Espanola Antigua" by the same author.

1.1 You can buy Forton's books here (they sell all the others that are not listed at the site):

http://www.navajasantiguas.com/index1.html

2. Depends what you mean by a navaja; In Spanish that word applies to any folding knife. If you mean specifically those legendary clasp knifes that were used as both tools and weapons, then they went out of use over a 100 years ago and unless you have one made to order or go to an antique shop, you'll have trouble buying one. What's being sold these day as navajas are low quality thematic interpretations that only vaguely resemble the knives of the past and are aimed solely at the souvenier market - A bit like the wall-hanger stainless steel junk swords from Toledo. Only traditionalists and collectors in Spain bother with real navajas, their design and size having rendered them obsolete. I am not aware of anybody importing navajas into Australia, but there could be someone.

2.1 One notable exception to the above is the range offered by the Spanish cutler Exposito. Whilst his knives only loosely resemble those used up to 1900, being utilitarian in design, they are the last readily available examples of traditional Spanish folders, the kind that largely disappeared by 1970. Stay away from their `Serie Albacete' (the ones in the wooden display cases) since these are intended as souvenirs.The prices of Exposito knives are reasonable and the quality is fairly good.

You can buy one here:

http://www.cuchilleria-exposito.com/.../principal.htm

2.2 If you want to buy a good replica try here:

http://www.knivesart.com/web/index.html

Or for a real antique try here:
http://www.knivescollection.com/cata..._antichi_e.asp

Cheers
Chris

Frank · 20th March 2005, 03:35 AM

Chris

Thanks for all that info. I have to start taking Spanish lesons (lol)

You say that "fighting with navajas came to an end in Spain over a hundred years ago". What proof have you of this.

Frank

Chris Evans · 20th March 2005, 11:50 PM

Hi Frank,

The use of navajas started to decline sharply from around 1868 and by 1900 its usage was over. After that date a small number of new generation utilitarian folding knives based on the old navajas (as still made by Exposito) continued to be manufactured, but the demand and output remained relatively small.

We know this from cutlery industry figures re production and importation of navajas. This is a fact beyond debate, for to argue otherwise it would have to be demonstrated where the navajas that were supposedly being used came from.

Something that is not widely known is that during the halcyon days of the navaja, the mid 1800s, the majority were made in France and not in Spain (so much for the famous Santolios and Sevillanas!) - By that time the Spanish cutlery industry was in severe and irreversible decline.

Because of this, we know the number of navajas imported into Spain with great accuracy. Between 1850 and 1862 an average of a million and a quarter of such navajas were brought into Spain annually, yet by 1869 this figure fell to a paltry 690,000 and there was no increase in the local manufacture to make up the difference. By 1900 the Spanish cutlery industry almost disappeared and there was no importation.

So any talk of Spain having retained a navaja culture flies in face of hard facts.

Cheers
Chris

Frank · 24th March 2005, 04:53 AM

Chris

I came across someone who showed me a real old navaja. he said it was made in 1860. It was large all right and with a wide blade but was very slow and hard to open. Had it been sharp you would have to be real careful opening it and closing it. Didn't feel right, or not as right as my Voyager, kinda clumsy. He said he paid $1000 for it.

I like to know how they opened them in a fight. This one was so slow to open that I would have had to run away to buy time. My Voyager just flicks open. Were they all like this?

Frank

Chris Evans · 24th March 2005, 09:13 AM

Hi Frank,

1. Which of these two photos did that navaja you saw resemble? The uppermost one with the etched & painted blade is a native Spanish navaja with a secure ratchet lock and the lower one, with the broad blade, a French import, without a full lock.

2. Most navajas were very slow to open and close and were rather poor weapons. They are certainly not comparable to modern tactical folders in this regard.

This was the only reason why they were half tolerated by the authorities. I say "half tolerated" because after the early eighteenth century all effective weapons were banned in Spain. This included navajas that could be locked into the open position and thus used violently.

In time and in some jurisdictions, lockable navajas were turned a blind eye but every now and then there were crackdowns and the law was enforced - This is the reason why the Spanish cutlery industry was decimated by 1850.

Most navajas in the nineteenth century were of French origins and did not have a lock, only a very strong spine-spring - Needless to say they made for poor weapons and because of this the authorities more or less accepted them. Only the locally made navajas tended to have secure locks, but by the 1850s these were very much in the minority and largely outlawed.

Have a great Easter
Chris

Frank · 25th March 2005, 10:08 AM

Chris

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

1. Which of these two photos did that navaja you saw resemble? The uppermost one with the etched & painted blade is a native Spanish navaja with a secure ratchet lock and the lower one, with the broad blade, a French import, without a full lock.

It was exactly like the one on the bottom. It was very hard to open and close. Had to apply a lot of pressure on the blade. No locks or levers, just pressure on the blade.

Regards
Frank

Chris Evans · 26th March 2005, 06:51 AM

Hi Frank,

Yes, that's a French navaja. Contrary to common perceptions, by the middle of the nineteenth century, they made up the vast majority of navajas in Spain and the Spanish ratcheting `Santolios' and `Sevillanas' were very much in the minority. Between 1850 and 1870 over twenty million such folders were imported into Spain, a staggering number if we consider the then adult male population being only around 4 million!

What I find even more interesting is that whilst they were large and looked fearsome, in truth they made for rather poor weapons, because they lacked a proper blade lock, relying on mere spring pressure fixation and were very slow to open. The absence of a secure lock is what made these knives acceptable to the authorities and the significance of this fact cannot be overstated.

The absence of a lock made thrusting a rather risky, though not impossible, proposition and when used in fights, they must have relied more on the sweeping cut.

I just cannot help feeling that folklore aside, the Spaniards of old were not quite as ready to fight to the death as they are nowadays made out to be.

Cheers
Chris

24th March 2005, 09:13 AM	#5
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Frank, 1. Which of these two photos did that navaja you saw resemble? The uppermost one with the etched & painted blade is a native Spanish navaja with a secure ratchet lock and the lower one, with the broad blade, a French import, without a full lock. 2. Most navajas were very slow to open and close and were rather poor weapons. They are certainly not comparable to modern tactical folders in this regard. This was the only reason why they were half tolerated by the authorities. I say "half tolerated" because after the early eighteenth century all effective weapons were banned in Spain. This included navajas that could be locked into the open position and thus used violently. In time and in some jurisdictions, lockable navajas were turned a blind eye but every now and then there were crackdowns and the law was enforced - This is the reason why the Spanish cutlery industry was decimated by 1850. Most navajas in the nineteenth century were of French origins and did not have a lock, only a very strong spine-spring - Needless to say they made for poor weapons and because of this the authorities more or less accepted them. Only the locally made navajas tended to have secure locks, but by the 1850s these were very much in the minority and largely outlawed. Have a great Easter Chris Attached Images

20th March 2005, 03:35 AM	#2
Frank Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 23	Chris Thanks for all that info. I have to start taking Spanish lesons (lol) You say that "fighting with navajas came to an end in Spain over a hundred years ago". What proof have you of this. Frank

20th March 2005, 11:50 PM	#3
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Frank, The use of navajas started to decline sharply from around 1868 and by 1900 its usage was over. After that date a small number of new generation utilitarian folding knives based on the old navajas (as still made by Exposito) continued to be manufactured, but the demand and output remained relatively small. We know this from cutlery industry figures re production and importation of navajas. This is a fact beyond debate, for to argue otherwise it would have to be demonstrated where the navajas that were supposedly being used came from. Something that is not widely known is that during the halcyon days of the navaja, the mid 1800s, the majority were made in France and not in Spain (so much for the famous Santolios and Sevillanas!) - By that time the Spanish cutlery industry was in severe and irreversible decline. Because of this, we know the number of navajas imported into Spain with great accuracy. Between 1850 and 1862 an average of a million and a quarter of such navajas were brought into Spain annually, yet by 1869 this figure fell to a paltry 690,000 and there was no increase in the local manufacture to make up the difference. By 1900 the Spanish cutlery industry almost disappeared and there was no importation. So any talk of Spain having retained a navaja culture flies in face of hard facts. Cheers Chris

24th March 2005, 04:53 AM	#4
Frank Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 23	Chris I came across someone who showed me a real old navaja. he said it was made in 1860. It was large all right and with a wide blade but was very slow and hard to open. Had it been sharp you would have to be real careful opening it and closing it. Didn't feel right, or not as right as my Voyager, kinda clumsy. He said he paid $1000 for it. I like to know how they opened them in a fight. This one was so slow to open that I would have had to run away to buy time. My Voyager just flicks open. Were they all like this? Frank

26th March 2005, 06:51 AM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Frank, Yes, that's a French navaja. Contrary to common perceptions, by the middle of the nineteenth century, they made up the vast majority of navajas in Spain and the Spanish ratcheting `Santolios' and `Sevillanas' were very much in the minority. Between 1850 and 1870 over twenty million such folders were imported into Spain, a staggering number if we consider the then adult male population being only around 4 million! What I find even more interesting is that whilst they were large and looked fearsome, in truth they made for rather poor weapons, because they lacked a proper blade lock, relying on mere spring pressure fixation and were very slow to open. The absence of a secure lock is what made these knives acceptable to the authorities and the significance of this fact cannot be overstated. The absence of a lock made thrusting a rather risky, though not impossible, proposition and when used in fights, they must have relied more on the sweeping cut. I just cannot help feeling that folklore aside, the Spaniards of old were not quite as ready to fight to the death as they are nowadays made out to be. Cheers Chris