Indian Parrying Shield

Jim McDougall · 2nd January 2008, 08:40 PM

Thank you so much for posting the example of horns paired together as used by the fakirs and mendicants Montino, indeed very much appreciated.

I realize that these horns mounted with buckler and spike are obviously construed as a weapon, and fabricated in this manner would not have been used by these Holy individuals. The reason I wanted an illustration of the horns mounted this way was to illustrate the wider range of this weapon application.
In looking further, I found a reference ( the title of which I would rather not relay with certain hypersensitivities evidenced by some individuals here of late) written by John George Wood in 1883. The author relates a description of the horns we are discussing as "...a dagger made from the two horns of an Indian antelope. In the simplest form of this curious weapon, the horns are arranged with thier bases crossing each other for about six inches".
Further, "...the curvature of the bases thus furnishes a sort of a handle, which can be grasped in such a way that the holder of the weapon can strike right and left with it, and among a number of people, could do a vast amount of damage in a very short time. A dagger such as has been described could be made in a half an hour and, indeed a temporary weapon might be made in a few minutes by lashing the horns together".

Clearly, such a weapon would serve its purpose well in the crowded streets of cities where the volatility and mayhem potential was constantly heightened by such crowding, and religious mendicants might suddenly be targeted by conflicts against them.
These ascetics and mendicants seem to have been prevalent not only in the major religions, but in varying factions and even associated cults, so it would be difficult to find specific references to doctrine or dogma concerning use of weapons, but it does seem generally well understood in the prohibition.

All very best regards,
Jim

Montino Bourbon · 2nd January 2008, 09:08 PM

Was the instrument ("Honest, it ain't a weapon...") of choice for certain European clerics, because it could not shed blood, having no cutting edge.

VANDOO · 2nd January 2008, 09:58 PM

MY GUESS WOULD BE THAT MANY GROUPS IN MANY PLACES AND TIMES DID NOT WANT TO APPEAR TO BE WARRIORS SO DID NOT WANT TO CARRY THE WEAPONS OF WARRIORS. THERE ARE MANY REASONS FOR THIS BUT THE GENERAL IDEA WAS TO SHOW THAT THEY DID NOT WANT TO FIGHT.
BUT JUST BECAUSE A PERSON OR GROUP DOES NOT WANT TO FIGHT DOES NOT MEAN THEY CAN REMAIN NEUTRAL AND NEVER NEED TO FIGHT. SO WAYS WERE FOUND TO DEFEND THEMSELVES THAT DID NOT COMPROMISE THEIR BELIEFS OR LAWS. WHILE THERE ARE MANY LAWS THAT FORBID THE SPILLING OF BLOOD DURING CERTIAN CELIBRATIONS OR IN CERTIAN PLACES. IN ALL CASES I KNOW OF THE SPILLING OF BLOOD WAS NOT A PROBLEM IN AN OPEN FIGHT ESPECIALLY IN SELF DEFENSE. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HEAR OF ANY OTHER GROUPS WHO HAD WEAPONS OR FIGHTING STYLES DESIGNED TO PREVENT THE SPILLING OF BLOOD EVEN IN SELF DEFENSE.

THE TUGS AS MENTIONED IN OTHER POSTS DID HAVE A PROHIBITION AGAINST SPILLING BLOOD WHEN THEY WERE KILLING OTHER TRAVELERS. THE REASON FOR THIS WAS THEIR BELIEF THAT KALI WAS DELIVERING THESE PEOPLE TO THEM AND SHE WOULD HIDE THE KILLINGS IF NO BLOOD WAS SPILLED OR WOMEN KILLED. SO IT WAS LIKE A KIND OF SACRIFICE AND RITUAL KILLING NOT A FIGHT.

AS TO A WEAPON MADE OF HORNS WITH SHARP POINTS , ITS NOT A VERY GOOD DESIGN FOR NOT SPILLING BLOOD, JUST ASK A MATADOR

Jim McDougall · 2nd January 2008, 10:03 PM

The non-shedding of blood was indeed a tenet of much religious dogma in many religions, however an 'instrument' such as a mace would not be very effective in such use as bloodshed would be inevitable. In the case of the use of the horns, the effect would be clear as well.

In the case of the cult known as 'thuggee' which we have discussed on a concurrent thread, the 'weapon' used was the noose, strategically used to avoid the spilling of blood as dictated in thier religious dogma.

Jim McDougall · 2nd January 2008, 10:05 PM

Hi Vandoo,
We must have posted at the same time. Very well said, and I especially like your matador analogy!!

All the best,
Jim

Norman McCormick · 2nd January 2008, 10:28 PM

I would suspect any sharp and pointy object wielded by man to be capable of spilling copious amounts of blood, just ask any bull.
Regards,
Norman.

Norman McCormick · 2nd January 2008, 10:43 PM

My apologies Vandoo I didn't read the second "not' plus my wife was speaking to me at the same time and for some reason she seemed to think what she was saying was more important than what I was reading.
Regards,
Norman.

VANDOO · 2nd January 2008, 11:52 PM

NO PROBLEM

SOMETIMES MY THOUGHT'S DON'T COME THRU VERY CLEAR AND I WAS NOT AN }A} STUDENT IN ENGLISH SO MY USE OF IT IS A BIT UNORTHADOX ,WE WON'T EVEN GET INTO MY SPELLING

WE ALL DO THE BEST WE CAN HERE ON THE FORUM, IT IS ESPECIALLY DIFFICULT FOR THOSE WHO'S NATIVE LANGUAGE IS NOT ENGLISH. I REALLY APPRECIATE THE EXTRA WORK THEY DO JUST TO POST ON THIS FORUM. I WOULD NOT KNOW WHERE TO START TO POST ON A FORUM IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE.

TO GET BACK ON TOPIC OR NEAR IT AT LEAST

MAN HAS BORROWED WEAPONS AND THE IDEAS FOR THEM FROM THE ANIMAL KINGDOM SINCE ANCIENT TIMES. WE WERE NOT BLESSED WITH BIG FANGS, CLAWS, HORNS, SPINES OR SHARP HOOFS WE ARE SLOW ,WEAK AND FRAGILE COMPARED TO MOST OF THE CRITTERS WE ARE AROUND. WE ARE JUST LUCKY INSECTS ARE SMALL OR WE PROBABLY WOULD BE EXTINCT.
WE HAVE USED SHARK TEETH,STINGRAY AND OTHER FISH SPINES AS WELL AS SHARP SHELLS FROM THE SEA. HORNS, CLAWS AND FANGS FROM ANIMALS AS WELL AS WEAPONS FASHONED FROM WOOD,STONE, BONE AND METALS THAT COPY THEIR FORMS. THE DESIRE OF MAN TO PROVE THEY ARE A GREAT HUNTER OR WARRIOR HAS ALWAYS CAUSED SOME TO PIT THEMSELVES AGAINST THE MOST DANGEROUS CRITTERS. THAT ALSO LED TO THE KEEPING OF TROPHYS AS A BADGE OF YOUR ACCOMPLISHMENTS TO IMPRESS THE GIRLS AND OTHER GUYS.
I GUESS WE HAVE ALWAYS ENVIED THE OTHER ANIMALS THEIR SPEED, POWER AND NATURAL ARMANENT. OUR COMPENSATION HAS BEEN OUR MINDS, ITS TOO BAD AS A RACE WE HAVE NOT MADE AS GOOD USE OF IT AS THE OTHER CRITTERS HAVE OF THEIR ABILITYS.

2nd January 2008, 09:08 PM	#2
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	A lead-weighed mace... Was the instrument ("Honest, it ain't a weapon...") of choice for certain European clerics, because it could not shed blood, having no cutting edge.

2nd January 2008, 08:40 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Thank you so much for posting the example of horns paired together as used by the fakirs and mendicants Montino, indeed very much appreciated. I realize that these horns mounted with buckler and spike are obviously construed as a weapon, and fabricated in this manner would not have been used by these Holy individuals. The reason I wanted an illustration of the horns mounted this way was to illustrate the wider range of this weapon application. In looking further, I found a reference ( the title of which I would rather not relay with certain hypersensitivities evidenced by some individuals here of late) written by John George Wood in 1883. The author relates a description of the horns we are discussing as "...a dagger made from the two horns of an Indian antelope. In the simplest form of this curious weapon, the horns are arranged with thier bases crossing each other for about six inches". Further, "...the curvature of the bases thus furnishes a sort of a handle, which can be grasped in such a way that the holder of the weapon can strike right and left with it, and among a number of people, could do a vast amount of damage in a very short time. A dagger such as has been described could be made in a half an hour and, indeed a temporary weapon might be made in a few minutes by lashing the horns together". Clearly, such a weapon would serve its purpose well in the crowded streets of cities where the volatility and mayhem potential was constantly heightened by such crowding, and religious mendicants might suddenly be targeted by conflicts against them. These ascetics and mendicants seem to have been prevalent not only in the major religions, but in varying factions and even associated cults, so it would be difficult to find specific references to doctrine or dogma concerning use of weapons, but it does seem generally well understood in the prohibition. All very best regards, Jim

2nd January 2008, 09:58 PM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MY GUESS WOULD BE THAT MANY GROUPS IN MANY PLACES AND TIMES DID NOT WANT TO APPEAR TO BE WARRIORS SO DID NOT WANT TO CARRY THE WEAPONS OF WARRIORS. THERE ARE MANY REASONS FOR THIS BUT THE GENERAL IDEA WAS TO SHOW THAT THEY DID NOT WANT TO FIGHT. BUT JUST BECAUSE A PERSON OR GROUP DOES NOT WANT TO FIGHT DOES NOT MEAN THEY CAN REMAIN NEUTRAL AND NEVER NEED TO FIGHT. SO WAYS WERE FOUND TO DEFEND THEMSELVES THAT DID NOT COMPROMISE THEIR BELIEFS OR LAWS. WHILE THERE ARE MANY LAWS THAT FORBID THE SPILLING OF BLOOD DURING CERTIAN CELIBRATIONS OR IN CERTIAN PLACES. IN ALL CASES I KNOW OF THE SPILLING OF BLOOD WAS NOT A PROBLEM IN AN OPEN FIGHT ESPECIALLY IN SELF DEFENSE. IT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO HEAR OF ANY OTHER GROUPS WHO HAD WEAPONS OR FIGHTING STYLES DESIGNED TO PREVENT THE SPILLING OF BLOOD EVEN IN SELF DEFENSE. THE TUGS AS MENTIONED IN OTHER POSTS DID HAVE A PROHIBITION AGAINST SPILLING BLOOD WHEN THEY WERE KILLING OTHER TRAVELERS. THE REASON FOR THIS WAS THEIR BELIEF THAT KALI WAS DELIVERING THESE PEOPLE TO THEM AND SHE WOULD HIDE THE KILLINGS IF NO BLOOD WAS SPILLED OR WOMEN KILLED. SO IT WAS LIKE A KIND OF SACRIFICE AND RITUAL KILLING NOT A FIGHT. AS TO A WEAPON MADE OF HORNS WITH SHARP POINTS , ITS NOT A VERY GOOD DESIGN FOR NOT SPILLING BLOOD, JUST ASK A MATADOR

2nd January 2008, 10:03 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	The non-shedding of blood was indeed a tenet of much religious dogma in many religions, however an 'instrument' such as a mace would not be very effective in such use as bloodshed would be inevitable. In the case of the use of the horns, the effect would be clear as well. In the case of the cult known as 'thuggee' which we have discussed on a concurrent thread, the 'weapon' used was the noose, strategically used to avoid the spilling of blood as dictated in thier religious dogma.

2nd January 2008, 10:05 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Vandoo, We must have posted at the same time. Very well said, and I especially like your matador analogy!! All the best, Jim

2nd January 2008, 10:28 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	I would suspect any sharp and pointy object wielded by man to be capable of spilling copious amounts of blood, just ask any bull. Regards, Norman.

2nd January 2008, 10:43 PM	#7
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	My apologies Vandoo I didn't read the second "not' plus my wife was speaking to me at the same time and for some reason she seemed to think what she was saying was more important than what I was reading. Regards, Norman.

2nd January 2008, 11:52 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	NO PROBLEM SOMETIMES MY THOUGHT'S DON'T COME THRU VERY CLEAR AND I WAS NOT AN }A} STUDENT IN ENGLISH SO MY USE OF IT IS A BIT UNORTHADOX ,WE WON'T EVEN GET INTO MY SPELLING WE ALL DO THE BEST WE CAN HERE ON THE FORUM, IT IS ESPECIALLY DIFFICULT FOR THOSE WHO'S NATIVE LANGUAGE IS NOT ENGLISH. I REALLY APPRECIATE THE EXTRA WORK THEY DO JUST TO POST ON THIS FORUM. I WOULD NOT KNOW WHERE TO START TO POST ON A FORUM IN ANOTHER LANGUAGE. TO GET BACK ON TOPIC OR NEAR IT AT LEAST MAN HAS BORROWED WEAPONS AND THE IDEAS FOR THEM FROM THE ANIMAL KINGDOM SINCE ANCIENT TIMES. WE WERE NOT BLESSED WITH BIG FANGS, CLAWS, HORNS, SPINES OR SHARP HOOFS WE ARE SLOW ,WEAK AND FRAGILE COMPARED TO MOST OF THE CRITTERS WE ARE AROUND. WE ARE JUST LUCKY INSECTS ARE SMALL OR WE PROBABLY WOULD BE EXTINCT. WE HAVE USED SHARK TEETH,STINGRAY AND OTHER FISH SPINES AS WELL AS SHARP SHELLS FROM THE SEA. HORNS, CLAWS AND FANGS FROM ANIMALS AS WELL AS WEAPONS FASHONED FROM WOOD,STONE, BONE AND METALS THAT COPY THEIR FORMS. THE DESIRE OF MAN TO PROVE THEY ARE A GREAT HUNTER OR WARRIOR HAS ALWAYS CAUSED SOME TO PIT THEMSELVES AGAINST THE MOST DANGEROUS CRITTERS. THAT ALSO LED TO THE KEEPING OF TROPHYS AS A BADGE OF YOUR ACCOMPLISHMENTS TO IMPRESS THE GIRLS AND OTHER GUYS. I GUESS WE HAVE ALWAYS ENVIED THE OTHER ANIMALS THEIR SPEED, POWER AND NATURAL ARMANENT. OUR COMPENSATION HAS BEEN OUR MINDS, ITS TOO BAD AS A RACE WE HAVE NOT MADE AS GOOD USE OF IT AS THE OTHER CRITTERS HAVE OF THEIR ABILITYS.