Karabela for comment

Jeff D · 27th December 2007, 04:50 PM

Hi Ariel,

Awesome references. The Sha Safi Karabela is shown in the middle portrait above. Oliver Pinchot note that it most likely is the same as his fathers.

Here is a quote from Pg 62 of Orez Perski Lech Kobyliniski states;

On portraits of Sha Abbas the Great dating from the 17th century shamshirs with a carabela hilt appear. This type of hilt can also be seen in portraits of Shah Safi and Shah Abbas II. On one picture in Padshahnama, which shows the audience granted by the emperoe Shahjahan to a Persian ambassador, the Persians carry sabers with such a hilt. Based on these portraits, some authors connect the genesis of the carabela hilt with Persia, however it is known that this type of hilt also appeared in much earlier Turkish sabers and so it probably originated there and was adopted in Persia later. Anyhow, it was used only in court sabers, and it was popular only for a short period of time.

I will see if I can find some of these earlier Turkish sabers. Looks like it is starting to swing your way.

All the Best
Jeff

ariel · 27th December 2007, 05:01 PM

Another hint:
Some time ago I posted this Yataghan:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4728
and thought it had a Karabela handle.
I was corrected, however, by several Forumites. This is the so-called North African form of the Yataghan handle.
However, look how similar it is to the "eaglehead" configuration!
I would say the N. African handle was a local modification of the Karabela one. Any disagreements?
Another area of Ottoman influence, and no connection with Persia!

TVV · 15th March 2010, 09:40 PM

My friend in Bulgaria, in his latest attempt to cause me great envy, has added another karabela hilted sword to his collection.

Tha blade is marked with what looks like a hand holding a cleaver, I am assuming meant as a stylized version of a kilidj (a blade with a yelman). Looking at the old markings thread, I saw similar markings, such as one by Peter Munich. In Munich's version though, the sword was straight and double edged. Does anyone recognize this particular marking?

Also, what would be a good guess on age? Late 17th century? There are a few similarly hilted swords in Vienna in displays associated with the second siege of the city by the Ottomans, thus my guess.

Many thanks for all responses,

Teodor

ariel · 15th March 2010, 11:37 PM

Nice to see old threads being resuscitated.
Somebody ( Alzheimer playing tricks again) on the Forum advanced another line: The Karabela handle was widespread all across the Ottoman sphere of influence, but pitifully sparse in Persia proper ( in fact, only a couple of pictures with Shahs sporting them) and never East of Persia or in Persia-influenced ( on-and -off) Daghestan. To attribute Karabela to Persia simply because Poland had good relations with Persia and Poles carried Karabelas is an argument of a dubious nature. Poland never shared a border with Iran, and their trade was limited to occasional batches of expensive souvenirs brought to Poland by Armenian traders. In contrast, Poles were in constant contact with the Hungarians, Tatars and Turks ( their borders spread down almost to the Black Sea).To amplify it even further, the ultimate Persian sword, Shamshir, was never popular in Poland. If we to believe the "Poland as the proving ground" theory, we need to ask ourselves: why did Poles choose an unpopular "Persian" sword karabela and ignored shamshir? My answer: because karabela did not come to them from Persia.
Interstingly, Cossacks, Poles close neighbors, carried a lot of shamshirs, but they raided Persia since 17th century ( Sten'ka Razin, for example).
That should be enough for anybody to conclude the origin. No?

ariel · 24th January 2018, 02:02 AM

Post resurrected again:-)))

Shah Abbas I captured Karbala around 1622, and that is when he could have seen the windows of the Imam Hussain shrine.

Here are 2 pictures by European artists: Albrecht Durer ( 1471-1528) and Pietro Befulco ( active 1471-1503).

Both show unmistakable karabela handles. Where from?

Ottomans invaded and occupied Balkans between 1352 ( Bulgaria) till 1526
(Hungary). Plenty of time for their weapons to become familiar to the Europeans.

Thus, karabela handles were known in Europe ~ 50-100 years before Shah Abbas I was even born ( 1571).

27th December 2007, 04:50 PM	#1
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Ariel, Awesome references. The Sha Safi Karabela is shown in the middle portrait above. Oliver Pinchot note that it most likely is the same as his fathers. Here is a quote from Pg 62 of Orez Perski Lech Kobyliniski states; On portraits of Sha Abbas the Great dating from the 17th century shamshirs with a carabela hilt appear. This type of hilt can also be seen in portraits of Shah Safi and Shah Abbas II. On one picture in Padshahnama, which shows the audience granted by the emperoe Shahjahan to a Persian ambassador, the Persians carry sabers with such a hilt. Based on these portraits, some authors connect the genesis of the carabela hilt with Persia, however it is known that this type of hilt also appeared in much earlier Turkish sabers and so it probably originated there and was adopted in Persia later. Anyhow, it was used only in court sabers, and it was popular only for a short period of time. I will see if I can find some of these earlier Turkish sabers. Looks like it is starting to swing your way. All the Best Jeff

15th March 2010, 09:40 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,664	My friend in Bulgaria, in his latest attempt to cause me great envy, has added another karabela hilted sword to his collection. Tha blade is marked with what looks like a hand holding a cleaver, I am assuming meant as a stylized version of a kilidj (a blade with a yelman). Looking at the old markings thread, I saw similar markings, such as one by Peter Munich. In Munich's version though, the sword was straight and double edged. Does anyone recognize this particular marking? Also, what would be a good guess on age? Late 17th century? There are a few similarly hilted swords in Vienna in displays associated with the second siege of the city by the Ottomans, thus my guess. Many thanks for all responses, Teodor Attached Images

24th January 2018, 02:02 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Post resurrected again:-))) Shah Abbas I captured Karbala around 1622, and that is when he could have seen the windows of the Imam Hussain shrine. Here are 2 pictures by European artists: Albrecht Durer ( 1471-1528) and Pietro Befulco ( active 1471-1503). Both show unmistakable karabela handles. Where from? Ottomans invaded and occupied Balkans between 1352 ( Bulgaria) till 1526 (Hungary). Plenty of time for their weapons to become familiar to the Europeans. Thus, karabela handles were known in Europe ~ 50-100 years before Shah Abbas I was even born ( 1571). Attached Images

27th December 2007, 05:01 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Another hint: Some time ago I posted this Yataghan: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4728 and thought it had a Karabela handle. I was corrected, however, by several Forumites. This is the so-called North African form of the Yataghan handle. However, look how similar it is to the "eaglehead" configuration! I would say the N. African handle was a local modification of the Karabela one. Any disagreements? Another area of Ottoman influence, and no connection with Persia!

15th March 2010, 11:37 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Nice to see old threads being resuscitated. Somebody ( Alzheimer playing tricks again) on the Forum advanced another line: The Karabela handle was widespread all across the Ottoman sphere of influence, but pitifully sparse in Persia proper ( in fact, only a couple of pictures with Shahs sporting them) and never East of Persia or in Persia-influenced ( on-and -off) Daghestan. To attribute Karabela to Persia simply because Poland had good relations with Persia and Poles carried Karabelas is an argument of a dubious nature. Poland never shared a border with Iran, and their trade was limited to occasional batches of expensive souvenirs brought to Poland by Armenian traders. In contrast, Poles were in constant contact with the Hungarians, Tatars and Turks ( their borders spread down almost to the Black Sea).To amplify it even further, the ultimate Persian sword, Shamshir, was never popular in Poland. If we to believe the "Poland as the proving ground" theory, we need to ask ourselves: why did Poles choose an unpopular "Persian" sword karabela and ignored shamshir? My answer: because karabela did not come to them from Persia. Interstingly, Cossacks, Poles close neighbors, carried a lot of shamshirs, but they raided Persia since 17th century ( Sten'ka Razin, for example). That should be enough for anybody to conclude the origin. No?