E. Java or Lombok keris blade?

Newsteel · 27th December 2007, 05:51 AM

That kind of sheath what we know belong to Lombok. But I heard from some, the Balinese claim that kind of wrangka (axe like) also belong to them.. I guess there is no right wrong answer for this...

Another opinion gathered was that, the bigger sheath was meant to show bravery and might scared the other opponent. I don't know how valid this is.

BluErf, that blade is nice to hold. Very sturdy blade and amazingly pretty light too. Love it...

RobT · 13th January 2008, 09:09 PM

Hi All,
I've been following this discussion avidly because of a keris that I recently purchased that seems to be a Balinese/Javanese hybrid. I would have entered the discussion earlier but today was the first day that has been sunny enough for me to take pictures. These are the features that I'm having trouble reconciling (note that the uwer isn't original to the piece but I don't think the one that it came with was original either as it was a simple, poorly made cone, that didn't match the quality of the blade or the dress).:
1. The blade and dress, aside from the hilt, look Javanese.
2. The hilt looks Balinese.
3. The wood of the hilt and the wranka match.
4. The blade fits the sheath perfectly.
5. The blade and sheath are noticeably larger than typical for Javanese pieces.
6. The dress is all of good quality.
7. The blade looks old, of good quality and pure Javanese (not like some of the more recently made Madura pieces made in a Balinese style).
I have included a three luk Javanese blade for size comparison. I am really interested in what you all make of this piece.
Sincerely,
RobT

kai · 14th January 2008, 09:04 AM

Hello Rob,

Eastern Jawa?

Some more close-ups may help...

Regards,
Kai

RobT · 15th January 2008, 12:35 AM

Hi kai,
Thanks for the reply. I'll try to take some better pictures this weekend if I get good sunlight. Do many eastern Java keris have Balinese hilts and do the blades in some cases tend to be larger than in the rest of Java?
Sincerely,
RobT

David · 15th January 2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobT

Hi kai,
Thanks for the reply. I'll try to take some better pictures this weekend if I get good sunlight. Do many eastern Java keris have Balinese hilts and do the blades in some cases tend to be larger than in the rest of Java?
Sincerely,
RobT

I believe East Jawa is known to have a fair sized Bali community so i believe the influence stems from there.

RobT · 27th January 2008, 08:43 PM

Hi All,
Here are better pictures of my possible Bali/Java hybrid. I have included new photos of the blade tip and base, hilt, wranka, and pendok. The blade size and hilt say Bali but everything else says Java. The blade fits the sheath and the wood of the hilt and wranka match. The best speculation thus far is a Balinese living in Java that remembers the old country.
Sincerely,
RobT

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2008, 01:18 AM

When we ask where a keris is from, it is important in many cases to define exactly what we mean by this question.

I have had keris referred to me for identification that came with good provenance going back in some cases over 100 years that told of exactly where and how they were collected, and the various component parts of the keris were from the four directions of the compass--- with some parts being unidentifiable. So even in Indonesia and Malaysia local people were mixing and matching parts years and years ago.

Local Indonesian dealers mix and match parts, dealers all over the world mix and match parts, collectors mix and match parts. Almost everybody mixes and matches, and as far as I can see always did, even back to at least the 16th century.

Where mixing and matching was at a minimum, and sometimes did not exist at all was where keris were used in a society that was under the direct influence and/or control of a kraton.

So when we want to classify a keris we need to split it up into its component parts.

In respect of Kai Wee's keris what I can see in the photo is a blade that could be from Jawa, Bali or Lombok. If Jawa, more likely East Jawa than elsewhere on Jawa, but it could be Bali or Lombok too, and I would not be prepared to be at all definite about it unless I had it in my hand. The warangan does not appear to be Balinese warangan.

The wrongko is the kandikan or bataan style. Some people also call this ladrangan, but in my opinion that is wrong.It could be either Bali or Lombok, and I personally make no distinction, as a Lombok wrongko of this style was made and used by Balinese people living on Lombok and still associated with mainland Balinese culture.

The hilt is the bondolan style and the same remarks I have made for the wrongko apply to this hilt.

The uwer is Balinese and new.

Rob's keris is more difficult.

The blade has some stylistic features that indicate Balinese origin, notably the long blumbangan and the pawakan, but there are other features , especially the material, that do not look Balinese. I would want to see this blade stained, and depending on the result from that, then possibly polished and stained again before I would be prepared to give a solid, defensible opinion on this blade.

The atasan of the wrongko is probably East Javanese, but the pendok is totally, totally out of proportion and just plain terrible. Somebody probably thought the pendok would look good for some reason or another, but it really looks wrong.

The hilt at first appearance seems to be Balinese, but there is a Madura/East Jawa hilt that is very similar to Balinese hilts, except that it has a slightly foreshortened proportion and seems a bit more chunky than a Bali hilt. From the pics I cannot see if this hilt is that style or not, and maybe I couldn't tell if it was from any photo. The difference is so slight sometimes that it really only registers when you hold it.

The image of the uwer is unclear, but it seems to be new and Balinese.

So, what is the origin of both these keris?

I would suggest that A)-- from photographs it is impossible to provide a defensible opinion, and that B)--- the various component parts of both keris could have originated in various different locations.

13th January 2008, 09:09 PM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 566	another hybrid? Hi All, I've been following this discussion avidly because of a keris that I recently purchased that seems to be a Balinese/Javanese hybrid. I would have entered the discussion earlier but today was the first day that has been sunny enough for me to take pictures. These are the features that I'm having trouble reconciling (note that the uwer isn't original to the piece but I don't think the one that it came with was original either as it was a simple, poorly made cone, that didn't match the quality of the blade or the dress).: 1. The blade and dress, aside from the hilt, look Javanese. 2. The hilt looks Balinese. 3. The wood of the hilt and the wranka match. 4. The blade fits the sheath perfectly. 5. The blade and sheath are noticeably larger than typical for Javanese pieces. 6. The dress is all of good quality. 7. The blade looks old, of good quality and pure Javanese (not like some of the more recently made Madura pieces made in a Balinese style). I have included a three luk Javanese blade for size comparison. I am really interested in what you all make of this piece. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

27th January 2008, 08:43 PM	#6
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 566	it was a sunny day Hi All, Here are better pictures of my possible Bali/Java hybrid. I have included new photos of the blade tip and base, hilt, wranka, and pendok. The blade size and hilt say Bali but everything else says Java. The blade fits the sheath and the wood of the hilt and wranka match. The best speculation thus far is a Balinese living in Java that remembers the old country. Sincerely, RobT Attached Images

27th December 2007, 05:51 AM	#1
Newsteel Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 132	That kind of sheath what we know belong to Lombok. But I heard from some, the Balinese claim that kind of wrangka (axe like) also belong to them.. I guess there is no right wrong answer for this... Another opinion gathered was that, the bigger sheath was meant to show bravery and might scared the other opponent. I don't know how valid this is. BluErf, that blade is nice to hold. Very sturdy blade and amazingly pretty light too. Love it...

14th January 2008, 09:04 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Rob, Eastern Jawa? Some more close-ups may help... Regards, Kai

15th January 2008, 12:35 AM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 566	Hi kai, Thanks for the reply. I'll try to take some better pictures this weekend if I get good sunlight. Do many eastern Java keris have Balinese hilts and do the blades in some cases tend to be larger than in the rest of Java? Sincerely, RobT

28th January 2008, 01:18 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,056	When we ask where a keris is from, it is important in many cases to define exactly what we mean by this question. I have had keris referred to me for identification that came with good provenance going back in some cases over 100 years that told of exactly where and how they were collected, and the various component parts of the keris were from the four directions of the compass--- with some parts being unidentifiable. So even in Indonesia and Malaysia local people were mixing and matching parts years and years ago. Local Indonesian dealers mix and match parts, dealers all over the world mix and match parts, collectors mix and match parts. Almost everybody mixes and matches, and as far as I can see always did, even back to at least the 16th century. Where mixing and matching was at a minimum, and sometimes did not exist at all was where keris were used in a society that was under the direct influence and/or control of a kraton. So when we want to classify a keris we need to split it up into its component parts. In respect of Kai Wee's keris what I can see in the photo is a blade that could be from Jawa, Bali or Lombok. If Jawa, more likely East Jawa than elsewhere on Jawa, but it could be Bali or Lombok too, and I would not be prepared to be at all definite about it unless I had it in my hand. The warangan does not appear to be Balinese warangan. The wrongko is the kandikan or bataan style. Some people also call this ladrangan, but in my opinion that is wrong.It could be either Bali or Lombok, and I personally make no distinction, as a Lombok wrongko of this style was made and used by Balinese people living on Lombok and still associated with mainland Balinese culture. The hilt is the bondolan style and the same remarks I have made for the wrongko apply to this hilt. The uwer is Balinese and new. Rob's keris is more difficult. The blade has some stylistic features that indicate Balinese origin, notably the long blumbangan and the pawakan, but there are other features , especially the material, that do not look Balinese. I would want to see this blade stained, and depending on the result from that, then possibly polished and stained again before I would be prepared to give a solid, defensible opinion on this blade. The atasan of the wrongko is probably East Javanese, but the pendok is totally, totally out of proportion and just plain terrible. Somebody probably thought the pendok would look good for some reason or another, but it really looks wrong. The hilt at first appearance seems to be Balinese, but there is a Madura/East Jawa hilt that is very similar to Balinese hilts, except that it has a slightly foreshortened proportion and seems a bit more chunky than a Bali hilt. From the pics I cannot see if this hilt is that style or not, and maybe I couldn't tell if it was from any photo. The difference is so slight sometimes that it really only registers when you hold it. The image of the uwer is unclear, but it seems to be new and Balinese. So, what is the origin of both these keris? I would suggest that A)-- from photographs it is impossible to provide a defensible opinion, and that B)--- the various component parts of both keris could have originated in various different locations.