Need help by identification of a knife

RobT · 27th December 2007, 02:21 AM

Hi All,
I believe the sea creature is a dolphin and the rider is the mythological Greek musician Arion. The woodcuts in the vihuela book "Seys Libros del Delfin de Musica" by Narváez published at Valladolid in 1538 show, according to the playwright Thomas Heywood, "Arion on the Dolphin's backe, still fumbling on a gittern". (Apparently the publishers felt it necessary to replace Arion's traditional lyre with a vihuela.) If my identification is correct, it would seem to indicate that the blade was at least owned (and engraved) at some point by a European.
Sincerely,
RobT

RobT · 29th December 2007, 02:27 AM

Hi All,
I neglected to mention an important part of the Arion legend. He was saved from drowning by a dolphin that loved his music.
Sincerely,
RobT

Henk · 29th December 2007, 09:00 AM

Rob,

According to your comment this knife could also have a Greek or Turkish origin. Or is it possible that in the neighbourhood of India, as earlier mentioned, this Greek mythology was engraved on the knive?

RobT · 29th December 2007, 04:36 PM

Hi Henk,
Indeed the knife itself could have a Turkish origin but I think it unlikely that a Muslim Turk would have adorned it with a representational engraving let alone one taken from Greek Mythology. It is possible that a person of Greek origin living in Turkey (or in Greece for that matter) had the engraving done but that would be a case of a westerner using a motif from his western heritage. While it is true that certain aspects of the Greek aesthetic were carried into India with the conquests of Alexander, that was a long time ago. Your blade can't date to that period and I have been led to understand that the Greek influence in the subcontinent was short lived with only surviving antiquities to attest to its presence. Given this, I would consider it unlikely that an Indian living in the 18th or 19th century would have chosen a minor character from Greek mythology as a subject for engraving. All this having been said however, the blade does have a non-western look about it and I think inglered's proposal that this is a European trade (rehilted to local taste) the most likely.
Sincerely,
RobT

Henk · 30th December 2007, 10:07 AM

Hi Rob,

Your answer makes sense. A Muslim certainly wouldn't engrave this picture on the blade. For the moment I will consider this blade as a european trading blade.

Thanks, Henk

inveterate · 30th December 2007, 11:43 AM

Dont wish to confuse the issue with anything non factual, but seem to recall seeing something similiar that came from Cyprus, the old brains a bit fogged on it and I cant recall where I saw it. Rod

Henk · 30th December 2007, 11:56 AM

Rod,

You certainly don't confuse the issue. Cyprus (Greece), was mentioned as a place of origin. Any help is welcome to identify this knife.

27th December 2007, 02:21 AM	#1
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 551	It's Greek to me Hi All, I believe the sea creature is a dolphin and the rider is the mythological Greek musician Arion. The woodcuts in the vihuela book "Seys Libros del Delfin de Musica" by Narváez published at Valladolid in 1538 show, according to the playwright Thomas Heywood, "Arion on the Dolphin's backe, still fumbling on a gittern". (Apparently the publishers felt it necessary to replace Arion's traditional lyre with a vihuela.) If my identification is correct, it would seem to indicate that the blade was at least owned (and engraved) at some point by a European. Sincerely, RobT

29th December 2007, 02:27 AM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 551	Hi All, I neglected to mention an important part of the Arion legend. He was saved from drowning by a dolphin that loved his music. Sincerely, RobT

29th December 2007, 09:00 AM	#3
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Rob, According to your comment this knife could also have a Greek or Turkish origin. Or is it possible that in the neighbourhood of India, as earlier mentioned, this Greek mythology was engraved on the knive?

29th December 2007, 04:36 PM	#4
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 551	Hi Henk, Indeed the knife itself could have a Turkish origin but I think it unlikely that a Muslim Turk would have adorned it with a representational engraving let alone one taken from Greek Mythology. It is possible that a person of Greek origin living in Turkey (or in Greece for that matter) had the engraving done but that would be a case of a westerner using a motif from his western heritage. While it is true that certain aspects of the Greek aesthetic were carried into India with the conquests of Alexander, that was a long time ago. Your blade can't date to that period and I have been led to understand that the Greek influence in the subcontinent was short lived with only surviving antiquities to attest to its presence. Given this, I would consider it unlikely that an Indian living in the 18th or 19th century would have chosen a minor character from Greek mythology as a subject for engraving. All this having been said however, the blade does have a non-western look about it and I think inglered's proposal that this is a European trade (rehilted to local taste) the most likely. Sincerely, RobT

30th December 2007, 10:07 AM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Hi Rob, Your answer makes sense. A Muslim certainly wouldn't engrave this picture on the blade. For the moment I will consider this blade as a european trading blade. Thanks, Henk

30th December 2007, 11:43 AM	#6
inveterate Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 58	Dont wish to confuse the issue with anything non factual, but seem to recall seeing something similiar that came from Cyprus, the old brains a bit fogged on it and I cant recall where I saw it. Rod

30th December 2007, 11:56 AM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Rod, You certainly don't confuse the issue. Cyprus (Greece), was mentioned as a place of origin. Any help is welcome to identify this knife.