keris blade for comment.

[rasdan]

You're the man Capt., believe me you're the man. To me, that metal that makes your keris and the type of pamor is almost impossible to etch; except for the Javaneese specialist. For amature collector to etch a keris like that is SUPERB!! I've used natural realgar, and the result is ok on several kerisses only, that is keris with a kinda porous metal. With kerisses like yours, its almost impossible for me to etch. And yet, you've done it. Perhaps i should use purer realgar. However, i believe most collector in SE Asia would not approve the sandpaper method. As for me, if it works...what the heck...

Can u please explain regarding opening the steel grain using sulphuric acid? What does it do to the grain structure?

[capt.smash]

Hi Rasdan thanks for your kind words As for" opening the grain"[i must mention that all the sanding was done with strokes running parrallel to the length of the blade only]now after the whole sanding and polishing process if i looked down the blade i could not see the pamor ,the sanding causes the visable surface to blend /smear together so the pamor is barely visible[best way i can think of explaing it] so a quick whipe with battery acid gives it a slight etch just enough to make the pattern visible again.Do you know what i mean by sealed grain?
Also i forgot to mention that i only sanded the blade up to about 3 inches before the ganja[just before it starts to taper outwards] this was so i didnt remove any of the original engraveing.

Any information on technique the profesional restorer would have done on any of these stages would be most welcome

[rasdan]

Thanks for the info Capt. I try the method in my next session of staining.

[BSMStar]

Hi Captain,

Nitric acid (HNO3) is commonly used to etch meteorites (it removes iron faster than nickel)... it may work better for you to "open" or "lift" the grain of the pamor. But of course, if it is not available then sulfuric will work a little more slowly. Be careful of the concentration you use (5% nitric in 95% isopropyl alcohol works, slowly add acids to other diluents and not the other way around - it can be a violent reaction) and the exposures time that you allow to the acid, you do not want to be too aggressive. It sounds like you are off to a great start!

Phosphoric acid makes a great rust remover in extreme cases.

[tom hyle]

This to me is the ultimate journey in collecting; when you get into the actual processes of the original culture, and can give the piece even more respect than to preserve it; to improve it; all congratulations to you, and thanks for sharing.

[nechesh]

Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials.

[capt.smash]

Hi guys. Tom thanks for your kind words i realy enjoyed doing this ...ill post more pics when i get the gold back on it.

BSMStar thanks for the cool info very helpful ...now ill have to buy another old trade blade to have a play with

Hi Nachesh "i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture"
I see where you are comeing from here ..do you know what the traditional methods would have been?id love to know and i was hopeing someone with the knowhow would post and share the knowledge.I cant realy see how my methods could be that diffrent ...for sandpaper they would have just used a similar grade of stone and they presumably would have used arsenic and acid to etch it?

"Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture."I tried to be as respectful as i could believe me[ i put alot of time into makeing the staining process as traditional as i could] ....and i was perfectly aware that i could have just sanded the blade in five min,s useing a sanding pad on a angle grinder and then polished it useing a metal polishing wheel.But i chose to spend a day and a half sanding it by hand with 6 grades of sandpaper to near mirror polish[not an easy task i can tell you my hands were killing me at the end ].The only acid i used was sulfuric acid from a battery ..and i only wiped the blade a few times with a rag soaked in it....this is quite a mild acid[i never even wore gloves]
I am confident this method will work for any keris blade ive stained 2 other blades 1 before and 1 after and both responded equally well, it just a matter of how long you leave the blade in the solution[the longer you leave it the darker it becomes].Its not rocket science if you ask me the real secret to a good looking blade is how well it was forged originaly[if the beauty is there then the etch and stain will bring it out]

[tom hyle]

Originally Posted by nechesh

Tom, i'm not so sure i see how what has been done to this blade is somehow an "improvement" over the "actual processes of the original culture". This is not to say that i don't think Smashy had some good results messing around with a few alternative methods when staining this blade, but i am not so sure the use of these harsher acids pays all that much respect to the spirit of the blade or the culture. Also Smashy, you may just find you are not so lucky the next time you try these methods.
And while your results have certainly made your blade look better, i would not be surprised to find a professional could do as good a job if not better using only traditional materials.

Not been following this one for a few days, and find myself disturbed by your comments. First off, I never directed anything to any individual person (this arises again and again), second off, I do think however there IS a certain bitterness or anger latent in your commentary; not so much in the use of what may or may not be contempt-quotes (as the things quoted, though quite removed from their original context, are actual quotes), but much moreso in the way the meaning of what I said is twisted to form an attack against it. I NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THIS BEING AN IMPROVEMENT OVER THE ACTUAL PROCESSES OF THE ORIGINAL CULTURE. THAT IS A MADE-UP THING AND I CAN"T EVEN SEE IT AS AN INTERPRETATION OF WHAT I SAID. (I said it was within the tradition of the original culture, or a reasonable imitation....no I'm not gonna go look right now.......and an improvement to the individual object. I consider it fairly obvious that said improvement is to its condition.) Twisting the words of someone you want to oppose into something they didn't say so you can oppose them seems in the realm of complaining bitterly or something like it to me. Also, your dire and unfounded (for the blade; the Captain's skin is all I'm worried about) warnings seem to me to carry an unwarranted emotional tone (and there's no true comparison between the Captain's actions and the 1/2 disolved k(e)ris, whether it is excavated or artificially aged, though I might add I'd be surprised if it's condition had not occured within its original culture, so what's that say?). Additionally, each person who complains civilly in a setting where civility is enforced goes a certain distance toward representing others who don't speak, and even to represent more than is openly said. Don't you know politicians say each letter they get represents 1,000 people who didn't write? One thousand. Additionally, there's a big forum here of many past posts on this and similar subjects, and more than one post expressing concerns on this particular thread. Additionally, there's a big world out here, full of people with whom I've interacted, and which experiences I refer to, of course, as readily as whatever has just been said on "X" thread on this forum, as anyone's knowledge is formed by their experience. Additionally, I occasionally get randomly editted or complained to by the forum staff because someone has gotten in a huff over their inability to interact with my reality, and it's not a trend I'm real happy with. So very much of this confusion could be avoided by reading what I say as itself, rather than reading into it, but oh well; that may not be reasonable or possible.
I certainly never said a professional k(e)ris surfacer wouldn't/couldn't have done just as well, and maybe even better, though I think the work seen here is of a quality such that doing it "better" is more a matter of taste/philosophy than quality at this point (then, this is often the case, though this fact is very difficult for many people to absorb; the consciousness of social paradigms/memes/etc. does not come readily to many human minds.).
So, to review, A/ I didn't say that you, Nechesh, specifically complained bitterly, although B/ It wouldn't have been unjustified if I did. C/ Jeeze; This sort of thing usually doesn't come up unless I say something about some dead guy who happens to be from the same nation as someone, but it's pretty much the same issue; I've threatened someone's paradigm with the truth.....