STRANGE KATAR FORM WEAPON INDIA

VANDOO · 20th December 2007, 05:03 PM

I AGREE WITH JIM THAT IT IS UNLIKELY THIS HAS ANY RELATION TO THE TUGEE FOR THE REASONS STATED. THEY WERE SAID TO BE PROTECTED BY KALI AND WOULD NOT BE CAUGHT IF THEY FOLLOWED HER RULES THE MAIN ONES WERE NOT TO SPILL THE BLOOD OF THEIR VICTIMS OR TO KILL WOMEN.

I SUSPECT THEY MAY HAVE CARRIED OTHER WEAPONS FOR DEFENSE IF THEY WERE ATTACKED BUT DID NOT USE THEM WHEN THEY INFILTRATED A GROUP AND LULLED THEM INTO TRUSTING THEM BEFORE THEY STRUCK.
A INTERESTING GROUP WHO MURDERED UNTOLD NUMBERS OF PEOPLE OVER A LONG PERIOD. THERE IS A GOOD MOVIE DEALING WITH IT (THE DECIEVERS) STARING PIERCE BRONSON, IT IS WELL DONE WITHOUT OVER DRAMATIZING OR CHANGEING THE HISTORY. I SUSPECT THERE HAVE BEEN SOME MADE BY THE CINIMA IN INDIA BUT HAVE NOT SEEN ANY, INDIANA JONES AND THE OLD 1939 GUNGA DIN MOVIE ALSO BORROWED FROM THE TUGEE BUT WERE NOT ACCURATE, BUT GOOD ENTERTAINMENT NONE THE LESS.

THE WEAPON ABOVE WOULD INDEED INVOKE THE EMOTION "WHAT THE HECK IS THAT EVIL LOOKING THING"

WHEN BRANDISHED BUT WOULD NOT BE A VERY GOOD WEAPON. I ASSUME THE BLADES WERE POSITIONED AS DESIRED AND THEN LOCKED IN PLACE BEFORE USE AND DID NOT TURN FREELY. THE TWO BACK FACEING BLADES COULD SERVE TO KEEP SOMEONE FROM GRABBING THE HAND AS WELL AS ACTING AS A GAURD THEY WOULD ALSO WORK WELL IF THE THING WAS THROWN AT SOME POINT IN THE FIGHT. IT IS FUN TO TRY AND THINK UP WAYS SOMETHING STRANGE LIKE THIS COULD BE USED. HERES ONE SENARIO WAVE IT AROUND UP HIGH THEN THROW IT DOWN AND PIN THE ENEMYS FOOT TO THE GROUND AND USE THE SWORD IN YOUR OTHER HAND TO FINISH UP. IT COULD BE USED FOR PARRING ALONG WITH A SWORD BUT WITH ALL THOSE BLADES YOU WOULD RUN AN INCREASED RISK OF CUTTING YOURSELF.

VANDOO · 22nd December 2007, 02:19 AM

HERE IS ANOTHER STRANGE INDIA KATAR AND A FEW OF THE MANY STRANGE CHINESE SHORT WEAPONS. I HAVE NO INFORMATION ON THE KATAR AND ALL THE CHINESE WEAPONS ARE MODERN ONES FOR MARTIAL ARTS AS I DON'T HAVE ANY PICTURES OF GOOD OLD ONES.
1. 5 BLADED INDIAN KATAR, 2. HOOK TYPE WEAPONS, 3.VARIATION OF HOOK TYPE, 4. ANTLER KNIVES, 5. SUN AND MOON SPEAR BLADES.

THE KATAR IS INTERESTING IN THAT IT COULD BE USED EITHER LEFT OR RIGHT HANDED AND COULD ALSO BE TURNED TO GAURD THE FOREARM AND ALSO STRIKE TO BOTH SIDES AS WELL AS TO THE FRONT.

VANDOO · 22nd December 2007, 03:25 AM

CHINESE SHORT WEAPONS CONTINUED
6. VARIATION OF HOOK FORM, 9 TEETH HOOKS 7. MANDARIN COIN BLADES, 8. WIND AND FIRE WHEELS, 9. YUEN YANG RAZORS ANOTHER VARIATION OF THE HOOK FORM.

THIS WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO POST PICTURES OF ANY OF THE AUTHENTIC WEAPONS OF THESE FORMS IF ANYONE HAS SOME.

fearn · 22nd December 2007, 04:17 AM

I don't know that you're going to find to many "old" versions of these weapons, but I can give you some history on the deer horn knives and the mandarin duck knives, aka rooster knives.

Both are used in Baguazhang (pa kua chang). The deer horn knives were the personal weapon of Dong Hai Chuan (1797-1882), founder of the system, and he passed on the weapon to many of his students. The rooster knives were the personal weapons of his youngest disciple, Liang Zhen Pu. Both weapons are well suited to the infighting style of bagua (think shredder) and were used in pairs, one in each hand. Of the two, the deer horn knives are much more widely known, but both are still practiced.

So far as I know (and I'm not an expert in the system by any means), these men invented the weapons specifically to suit their fighting styles, and then passed the weapons and skills on.

Basically, I'd be really, really surprised to see either of these weapons dating much before 1850, and I'd count any that pre-date 1900 to be a real find.

Jim McDougall · 27th December 2007, 02:32 AM

addendum:

In Elgood, "Hindu Arms & Ritual", p.257, an entry noting the 'panjmukh' which is a five headed spear used by the people of Gujerat.
(ref: Codrington Inventory, also found in Egerton #710).

22nd December 2007, 02:19 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE IS ANOTHER STRANGE INDIA KATAR AND A FEW OF THE MANY STRANGE CHINESE SHORT WEAPONS. I HAVE NO INFORMATION ON THE KATAR AND ALL THE CHINESE WEAPONS ARE MODERN ONES FOR MARTIAL ARTS AS I DON'T HAVE ANY PICTURES OF GOOD OLD ONES. 1. 5 BLADED INDIAN KATAR, 2. HOOK TYPE WEAPONS, 3.VARIATION OF HOOK TYPE, 4. ANTLER KNIVES, 5. SUN AND MOON SPEAR BLADES. THE KATAR IS INTERESTING IN THAT IT COULD BE USED EITHER LEFT OR RIGHT HANDED AND COULD ALSO BE TURNED TO GAURD THE FOREARM AND ALSO STRIKE TO BOTH SIDES AS WELL AS TO THE FRONT. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 22nd December 2007 at 02:30 AM.

22nd December 2007, 03:25 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	CHINESE SHORT WEAPONS CONTINUED 6. VARIATION OF HOOK FORM, 9 TEETH HOOKS 7. MANDARIN COIN BLADES, 8. WIND AND FIRE WHEELS, 9. YUEN YANG RAZORS ANOTHER VARIATION OF THE HOOK FORM. THIS WOULD BE A GOOD PLACE TO POST PICTURES OF ANY OF THE AUTHENTIC WEAPONS OF THESE FORMS IF ANYONE HAS SOME. Attached Images

20th December 2007, 05:03 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE WITH JIM THAT IT IS UNLIKELY THIS HAS ANY RELATION TO THE TUGEE FOR THE REASONS STATED. THEY WERE SAID TO BE PROTECTED BY KALI AND WOULD NOT BE CAUGHT IF THEY FOLLOWED HER RULES THE MAIN ONES WERE NOT TO SPILL THE BLOOD OF THEIR VICTIMS OR TO KILL WOMEN. I SUSPECT THEY MAY HAVE CARRIED OTHER WEAPONS FOR DEFENSE IF THEY WERE ATTACKED BUT DID NOT USE THEM WHEN THEY INFILTRATED A GROUP AND LULLED THEM INTO TRUSTING THEM BEFORE THEY STRUCK. A INTERESTING GROUP WHO MURDERED UNTOLD NUMBERS OF PEOPLE OVER A LONG PERIOD. THERE IS A GOOD MOVIE DEALING WITH IT (THE DECIEVERS) STARING PIERCE BRONSON, IT IS WELL DONE WITHOUT OVER DRAMATIZING OR CHANGEING THE HISTORY. I SUSPECT THERE HAVE BEEN SOME MADE BY THE CINIMA IN INDIA BUT HAVE NOT SEEN ANY, INDIANA JONES AND THE OLD 1939 GUNGA DIN MOVIE ALSO BORROWED FROM THE TUGEE BUT WERE NOT ACCURATE, BUT GOOD ENTERTAINMENT NONE THE LESS. THE WEAPON ABOVE WOULD INDEED INVOKE THE EMOTION "WHAT THE HECK IS THAT EVIL LOOKING THING" WHEN BRANDISHED BUT WOULD NOT BE A VERY GOOD WEAPON. I ASSUME THE BLADES WERE POSITIONED AS DESIRED AND THEN LOCKED IN PLACE BEFORE USE AND DID NOT TURN FREELY. THE TWO BACK FACEING BLADES COULD SERVE TO KEEP SOMEONE FROM GRABBING THE HAND AS WELL AS ACTING AS A GAURD THEY WOULD ALSO WORK WELL IF THE THING WAS THROWN AT SOME POINT IN THE FIGHT. IT IS FUN TO TRY AND THINK UP WAYS SOMETHING STRANGE LIKE THIS COULD BE USED. HERES ONE SENARIO WAVE IT AROUND UP HIGH THEN THROW IT DOWN AND PIN THE ENEMYS FOOT TO THE GROUND AND USE THE SWORD IN YOUR OTHER HAND TO FINISH UP. IT COULD BE USED FOR PARRING ALONG WITH A SWORD BUT WITH ALL THOSE BLADES YOU WOULD RUN AN INCREASED RISK OF CUTTING YOURSELF.

22nd December 2007, 04:17 AM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I don't know that you're going to find to many "old" versions of these weapons, but I can give you some history on the deer horn knives and the mandarin duck knives, aka rooster knives. Both are used in Baguazhang (pa kua chang). The deer horn knives were the personal weapon of Dong Hai Chuan (1797-1882), founder of the system, and he passed on the weapon to many of his students. The rooster knives were the personal weapons of his youngest disciple, Liang Zhen Pu. Both weapons are well suited to the infighting style of bagua (think shredder) and were used in pairs, one in each hand. Of the two, the deer horn knives are much more widely known, but both are still practiced. So far as I know (and I'm not an expert in the system by any means), these men invented the weapons specifically to suit their fighting styles, and then passed the weapons and skills on. Basically, I'd be really, really surprised to see either of these weapons dating much before 1850, and I'd count any that pre-date 1900 to be a real find.

27th December 2007, 02:32 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,283	addendum: In Elgood, "Hindu Arms & Ritual", p.257, an entry noting the 'panjmukh' which is a five headed spear used by the people of Gujerat. (ref: Codrington Inventory, also found in Egerton #710).