Pirate swords and weapons

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2007, 11:39 PM

Freebooter, I figured that was behind your well chosen handle!!! I think we all have a certain curious affinity for these rascals! at least in the romanticized sense.
Your post with that fearsome looking axe surely adds some perspective to the darker side of the actual piracy phenomenon, and the markings are most intriguing as we have noted the appearance of similar marks on early executioners swords. Thanks very much for posting this, something not often seen in these discussions!

David, well said on the favor for well guarded hands on the close quarters melees on deck, and all manner of basketed, shell guarded edged weapons were chosen. There was little 'fencing' or 'styled' sword combat, typically more of a street fighting anything goes scrap, though many 'pirates' had been seamen in various navies.
As you note, the flags, while intriguing, offer only stylized hints of the weapons actually used and were used for emphasis symbolically. The letters do seem to represent first letters of some saying or phrase, probably well known to the men who used it, but unknown to us at this point. It does indeed fall in line with this practice on sword blade markings. Sets the mind to wondering what in the world it might have meant. It seems interesting that very similar defiance and rebelliousness is seen today in tattoos, biker symbolics etc. These guys were basically seagoing versions of todays rebellious subcultures.

The nimchas were of course used in degree by the Barbary pirates, which were actually confederations of groups along the littoral in North Africa from Morocco to Algiers and Tunis. These 'nimchas's (actually sa'if) were among the many forms of edged weapons probably used, and as you note, there was considerable variation in the blades but most were of full length, suggesting these might have been used more in shore assaults.

Norman,
Thank you for joining us here, and I've very much enjoyed the weapons you have been posting on the other threads! Great examples, as is this one, which is as you note, a heavy cutlass type blade from the 1790's to early 19th century. This would probably have been mounted with the regulation naval disc hilt (see "Boarders Away" by William Gilkerson for exact references but if I recall there is one nearly identical shown). I am not with most of my references presently so please bear with me, this is a fantastic book though! The GR and crown ordnance stamp was not used until the end of the 18th century, and was typically on these cutlass blades, particularly with government contractors. If memory serves, one of the contractors of this period was I think William Dawes, but would need to reconfirm. The reference would be in "Swords for Sea Service" May & Annis, again, not handy

Although as you note, the "Golden Age" had largely subsided by 1725, the scourge of the seas continued, and of course still does. These naval cutlasses certainly found use aboard various renegade vessels in those later times, but would be difficult to substantiate specific cases.

Thank you very much guys!!!
All very best regards,
Jim

Matt Splatt · 20th December 2007, 10:19 PM

Hello all, this is such a great subject I felt I had to throw in this little tidbit. I've had this for years and it used to have an old tag that read "Seized from Igbo pirate Niger delta, 1897". I'm very aware that this may just be a bit of fiction designed to sell a crusty old gun but I also think it might be representative of the modification of available arms to meet the requirements of pirating. The lock plate, stock and trigger look to be from a Brown Bess. The hammer is definatly not, it is rather crudely forged and bears the remnants of silver Koftgari. Perhaps it is Arab. The trigger guard and lanyard loop are rather roughly filed from aluminum. A short handy gun with a lanyard would be ideal for clambering from ship to ship with out your pistol going into the drink.

Jim McDougall · 20th December 2007, 11:35 PM

Hi Matt,
Thank you for adding this, another excellent contribution! Who wouldnt find such an intriguing label exciting! and it most probably is quite accurate. As previously noted, piracy was by no means confined to the colorfully imaged activities of those in the Caribbean and exotic isles, nor in the so called "Golden Age of Piracy" from c.1650 to c.1725. Piracy has existed perpetually with the movements of commerce and trade from long before that time, and still does. Certainly the profoundly trade occupied Niger delta had its share of such activity, and though 1897 sounds tremendously modern, early warfare still prevailed , and what might have been considered relatively ancient weapons would be put to good use in native hands.
I think your assessment is most likely quite accurate, though I'm not extremely familiar with guns, and without markings hard to say. It does look like the piece has been dramatically altered as you have described.
Nice addition to our topic Matt! thank you!
All the best,
Jim

spiral · 22nd December 2007, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Splatt

. The trigger guard and lanyard loop are rather roughly filed from aluminum. .

Personly I think that implys later modification than 1897. Aluminium was about the price of 24c gold at that time I understand. So if used would be with rather more finesse I think?

Spiral

Gavin Nugent · 22nd December 2007, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Personly I think that implys later modification than 1897. Aluminium was about the price of 24c gold at that time I understand. So if used would be with rather more finesse I think?

Spiral

Interesting price comparison Spiral, I never knew.

As these rovers of the sea took what they did, not buy it, I would consider such a piece of aluminium to be period correct. It is well documented that pirates did destroy many fine pieces to equally share the weight of the booty , even coins where cut to pieces, with larger shares going to captains and others. This rough filed piece could well have been one of these pieces.

Gav

Matt Splatt · 22nd December 2007, 07:04 AM

Spiral, you are a bit off I'm afraid. In the mid 1800's aluminum was more expensive than gold but by 1880 it was about the price of silver. In 1886 the Hall-Heroult electrolysis method made it cheaply and in industrial quantities. By the mid 1890's it was so cheap it was used as a building material. It was a quite heavily used in the tropics because of its corrosion resistance. A prime example of this is the aluminum dome on the Chief Secretaries Building in Sydney Australia completed in 1895. So I don't think the aluminum is a problem with the date.

spiral · 22nd December 2007, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Splatt

Spiral, you are a bit off I'm afraid. In the mid 1800's aluminum was more expensive than gold but by 1880 it was about the price of silver. In 1886 the Hall-Heroult electrolysis method made it cheaply and in industrial quantities. By the mid 1890's it was so cheap it was used as a building material. It was a quite heavily used in the tropics because of its corrosion resistance. A prime example of this is the aluminum dome on the Chief Secretaries Building in Sydney Australia completed in 1895. So I don't think the aluminum is a problem with the date.

Thankyou Matt! Yes I was clearly mistaken on that dating. Apologies. Ill look at my sources again but it was probably just my memmory at fault!

Spiral

Berkley · 22nd December 2007, 07:17 PM

Among the relics recovered from Blackbeard's flagship Queen Anne's Revenge are a brass blunderbuss barrel, a sideplate from a pistol, and a whetstone. Regrettably no edged weapons have been found. The sea is not kind to iron and steel

.

20th December 2007, 10:19 PM	#2
Matt Splatt Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 31	Hello all, this is such a great subject I felt I had to throw in this little tidbit. I've had this for years and it used to have an old tag that read "Seized from Igbo pirate Niger delta, 1897". I'm very aware that this may just be a bit of fiction designed to sell a crusty old gun but I also think it might be representative of the modification of available arms to meet the requirements of pirating. The lock plate, stock and trigger look to be from a Brown Bess. The hammer is definatly not, it is rather crudely forged and bears the remnants of silver Koftgari. Perhaps it is Arab. The trigger guard and lanyard loop are rather roughly filed from aluminum. A short handy gun with a lanyard would be ideal for clambering from ship to ship with out your pistol going into the drink. Attached Images

22nd December 2007, 07:04 AM	#6
Matt Splatt Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 31	Spiral, you are a bit off I'm afraid. In the mid 1800's aluminum was more expensive than gold but by 1880 it was about the price of silver. In 1886 the Hall-Heroult electrolysis method made it cheaply and in industrial quantities. By the mid 1890's it was so cheap it was used as a building material. It was a quite heavily used in the tropics because of its corrosion resistance. A prime example of this is the aluminum dome on the Chief Secretaries Building in Sydney Australia completed in 1895. So I don't think the aluminum is a problem with the date. Last edited by Matt Splatt; 22nd December 2007 at 07:22 AM.

22nd December 2007, 07:17 PM	#8
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Queen Anne's Revenge Among the relics recovered from Blackbeard's flagship Queen Anne's Revenge are a brass blunderbuss barrel, a sideplate from a pistol, and a whetstone. Regrettably no edged weapons have been found. The sea is not kind to iron and steel .

19th December 2007, 11:39 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Freebooter, I figured that was behind your well chosen handle!!! I think we all have a certain curious affinity for these rascals! at least in the romanticized sense. Your post with that fearsome looking axe surely adds some perspective to the darker side of the actual piracy phenomenon, and the markings are most intriguing as we have noted the appearance of similar marks on early executioners swords. Thanks very much for posting this, something not often seen in these discussions! David, well said on the favor for well guarded hands on the close quarters melees on deck, and all manner of basketed, shell guarded edged weapons were chosen. There was little 'fencing' or 'styled' sword combat, typically more of a street fighting anything goes scrap, though many 'pirates' had been seamen in various navies. As you note, the flags, while intriguing, offer only stylized hints of the weapons actually used and were used for emphasis symbolically. The letters do seem to represent first letters of some saying or phrase, probably well known to the men who used it, but unknown to us at this point. It does indeed fall in line with this practice on sword blade markings. Sets the mind to wondering what in the world it might have meant. It seems interesting that very similar defiance and rebelliousness is seen today in tattoos, biker symbolics etc. These guys were basically seagoing versions of todays rebellious subcultures. The nimchas were of course used in degree by the Barbary pirates, which were actually confederations of groups along the littoral in North Africa from Morocco to Algiers and Tunis. These 'nimchas's (actually sa'if) were among the many forms of edged weapons probably used, and as you note, there was considerable variation in the blades but most were of full length, suggesting these might have been used more in shore assaults. Norman, Thank you for joining us here, and I've very much enjoyed the weapons you have been posting on the other threads! Great examples, as is this one, which is as you note, a heavy cutlass type blade from the 1790's to early 19th century. This would probably have been mounted with the regulation naval disc hilt (see "Boarders Away" by William Gilkerson for exact references but if I recall there is one nearly identical shown). I am not with most of my references presently so please bear with me, this is a fantastic book though! The GR and crown ordnance stamp was not used until the end of the 18th century, and was typically on these cutlass blades, particularly with government contractors. If memory serves, one of the contractors of this period was I think William Dawes, but would need to reconfirm. The reference would be in "Swords for Sea Service" May & Annis, again, not handy Although as you note, the "Golden Age" had largely subsided by 1725, the scourge of the seas continued, and of course still does. These naval cutlasses certainly found use aboard various renegade vessels in those later times, but would be difficult to substantiate specific cases. Thank you very much guys!!! All very best regards, Jim

20th December 2007, 11:35 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	Hi Matt, Thank you for adding this, another excellent contribution! Who wouldnt find such an intriguing label exciting! and it most probably is quite accurate. As previously noted, piracy was by no means confined to the colorfully imaged activities of those in the Caribbean and exotic isles, nor in the so called "Golden Age of Piracy" from c.1650 to c.1725. Piracy has existed perpetually with the movements of commerce and trade from long before that time, and still does. Certainly the profoundly trade occupied Niger delta had its share of such activity, and though 1897 sounds tremendously modern, early warfare still prevailed , and what might have been considered relatively ancient weapons would be put to good use in native hands. I think your assessment is most likely quite accurate, though I'm not extremely familiar with guns, and without markings hard to say. It does look like the piece has been dramatically altered as you have described. Nice addition to our topic Matt! thank you! All the best, Jim