study of oriental arms in poland

Jim McDougall · 17th March 2005, 09:41 PM

Hi Brian,
Nicely done!! Thank you for redirecting this.
A short time ago we had a pretty good thread going concerning the development of the sabre, and I think there we pretty much realized the profound influence that oriental arms had on Polish and Hungarian weapons.
With this being the case, and the centuries of conflict between the Turks and Eastern Europe, it seems quite well placed that they have such an interest and understanding of these weapons.
It is also interesting that the famed hussar regiments developed from the Turkish 'sipahi' and eventually influenced the cavalries of all of Europe via Poland and Hungary.

While most of the books I cited had focus on the Polish weapons, the distinct oriental influence is key in the material.

Very best regards,
Jim

wolviex · 17th March 2005, 10:05 PM

B.I. - I should be the first one to thank you for this post. You and Jim made me happy and proud of the place where I live.

There is pure true in Jim's words about Turkish-Polish relations, which gave us understanding of their war/weapon culture. Many weapons was adopted from Ottoman Empire in 17th century here in Poland. Persian art proucts were very popular. Some of them (Turkish and Persian) even became Polish national weapons as karabela for example.

Tomorrow I'll bring you a list of Polish books on this topic. Anyway I hope to. Oriental researches in Poland were made on many plots, the weapons are the small one, while for real only prof. Zdzislaw Zygulski made most important job here. I will only tell here about great Persian exhibition (in 2001 year probably) in Krakow and Warsaw. Well, the oriental collections in Poland have their own history too. If you poses "Peace and War" catalog, there you will see few objects from my musuem collection

(National Museum in Krakow, by the way)

Best regards and thank you once more!!

B.I · 17th March 2005, 10:05 PM

hi jim,
i agree, there is a very clear link between polish arms and armour and that of the regions further east. swords aside, you only have to see the polish or hungarian helmets to see the ottoman influence. i must admit a distinct lack of more european influenced references in my library, but i always aim for eastern european and surrounding countries as this similarity is very apparant.
unfortunately, the polish language is hard to pick through and it is frustrating when you know full well that the book you have holds important information, and yet all you can do is look at the pretty pictures.
wolviex would have an interesting and fulfilling (if not very well paid) change of career if he got into the book translation business

wolviex · 17th March 2005, 10:22 PM

B.I - with my English competence it would be a short career indeed

What can I say, of course I wont be able to tranlate for you every Polish book you'll pick, but I can offer you some help in hard and frustrating moments

B.I · 17th March 2005, 11:11 PM

hi wolviex,
your english is better than my polish and so you have the advantage. also, i would be careful about offering translation services so freely, or you will have the career change without the paycheque at the end of each month

the war and peace exhibition was wonderful and i really wish i had gone. the catalogue is fabulous and i will go through it soon and pick out the pieces from your museum. my copy of the catalogue is in polish unfortuantely, but i have access to other libraries and a friend has a copy of the english version, which i look at when i need a particular translation. i may take you up on your offer, but will do so carefully and wont push my luck

i look forward to your book list.

ariel · 18th March 2005, 02:45 AM

It is interesting that the best (available!) books on the subject of "Oriental" arms and armour are of European authorship: Persian weapons by Chodynski, Turkish by Astvatsaturyan, Indian and Arabian by Elgood , Indonesian by van Zonneveld, African by Spring, a whole slew by the Brits (Rawson, Robinson, Egerton, North) and , of course, encyclopedias by Stone , Blair/Tarassuk , and major works by Nicolle and Lebedynsky.
The Japanese wrote very extensively on their own weapons, but with this exception I am aware only of Pant's 3-volume set on Indian weapons and the new Ensiklopedia Kris (don't have it and forgot the name) as "native" books.
Is it because of the "academic pursuits" encouraged in the Western cultures or simply because we are just plain ignorant on the local scholarship?
Are there any truly important books on Oriental arms written by the native authors?
I do not want my input to be misconstrued as "Eurocentric" and dismissive of native scholarship; on the contrary, I really would like to get some info on important " horse's mouth" books.

Rivkin · 18th March 2005, 04:35 AM

I can't speak for all the orient, but with respect to caucasian weapons I've noticed (partly on my example) that the arrogance "I'm caucasian I know about these things" is probably the most dangerous factor.

The notion that there is some genetic caucasian "culture" that allows one to understand and know kindjals and shashkas without reading books is so dominant that sometimes it's impossible to even discuss anything.

I've heard that similar attitude is prelevant in Japan.

Jens Nordlunde · 18th March 2005, 05:17 PM

Rivkin, the fact that you are Caucasian does not mean anything here on the forum. What means something, is to help others with lesser knowledge than oneself, and I think you have done fine so far in the discussions on ‘Magnetic’.
I must also say, that I think Ariel has a point. There have not, so far been many books published in English, which is the language the most members on this forum reads, by authors from where the weapons we try to learn about come.
I, like several of the members on this forum, am unfortunate not to read or speak more than three or four languages, and can therefore not read book written in languages from far away. I am sorry it is so, but this has nothing to do with anyone’s nationality – it is a lack of linguistic.

Jens

wolviex · 18th March 2005, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by B.I

hi wolviex,
your english is better than my polish and so you have the advantage. also, i would be careful about offering translation services so freely, or you will have the career change without the paycheque at the end of each month

.

Oh come on, I'm idealist, and I don't need anything but the passion to survive.... do you think that's the reason I'm starving....

PS. Some of the books quote by you at the start, like "Szabla zolnierza polskiego" by Czerwinski and Dudek, or "Piec wiekow szabli polskiej" aren't about oriental arms

, maybe, in the second book it is only mentioned but nothing more, I think

Regards!

B.I · 18th March 2005, 09:15 PM

OUTSTANDING!!!!

Thank you kindly for spending my money

i shall look forward to the search for these references. do you have access to all of these in the museum? if so, can i get some answers on questions i may get in the future (about content of a particular book)?

Jens Nordlunde · 18th March 2005, 09:42 PM

wolviex, I think we can thank ourselves, that we have a member like you amongst us.

Jens

17th March 2005, 10:05 PM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Thank you B.I. - I should be the first one to thank you for this post. You and Jim made me happy and proud of the place where I live. There is pure true in Jim's words about Turkish-Polish relations, which gave us understanding of their war/weapon culture. Many weapons was adopted from Ottoman Empire in 17th century here in Poland. Persian art proucts were very popular. Some of them (Turkish and Persian) even became Polish national weapons as karabela for example. Tomorrow I'll bring you a list of Polish books on this topic. Anyway I hope to. Oriental researches in Poland were made on many plots, the weapons are the small one, while for real only prof. Zdzislaw Zygulski made most important job here. I will only tell here about great Persian exhibition (in 2001 year probably) in Krakow and Warsaw. Well, the oriental collections in Poland have their own history too. If you poses "Peace and War" catalog, there you will see few objects from my musuem collection (National Museum in Krakow, by the way) Best regards and thank you once more!!

17th March 2005, 09:41 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,474	Hi Brian, Nicely done!! Thank you for redirecting this. A short time ago we had a pretty good thread going concerning the development of the sabre, and I think there we pretty much realized the profound influence that oriental arms had on Polish and Hungarian weapons. With this being the case, and the centuries of conflict between the Turks and Eastern Europe, it seems quite well placed that they have such an interest and understanding of these weapons. It is also interesting that the famed hussar regiments developed from the Turkish 'sipahi' and eventually influenced the cavalries of all of Europe via Poland and Hungary. While most of the books I cited had focus on the Polish weapons, the distinct oriental influence is key in the material. Very best regards, Jim

17th March 2005, 10:05 PM	#3
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi jim, i agree, there is a very clear link between polish arms and armour and that of the regions further east. swords aside, you only have to see the polish or hungarian helmets to see the ottoman influence. i must admit a distinct lack of more european influenced references in my library, but i always aim for eastern european and surrounding countries as this similarity is very apparant. unfortunately, the polish language is hard to pick through and it is frustrating when you know full well that the book you have holds important information, and yet all you can do is look at the pretty pictures. wolviex would have an interesting and fulfilling (if not very well paid) change of career if he got into the book translation business

17th March 2005, 10:22 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	B.I - with my English competence it would be a short career indeed What can I say, of course I wont be able to tranlate for you every Polish book you'll pick, but I can offer you some help in hard and frustrating moments

17th March 2005, 11:11 PM	#5
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	hi wolviex, your english is better than my polish and so you have the advantage. also, i would be careful about offering translation services so freely, or you will have the career change without the paycheque at the end of each month the war and peace exhibition was wonderful and i really wish i had gone. the catalogue is fabulous and i will go through it soon and pick out the pieces from your museum. my copy of the catalogue is in polish unfortuantely, but i have access to other libraries and a friend has a copy of the english version, which i look at when i need a particular translation. i may take you up on your offer, but will do so carefully and wont push my luck i look forward to your book list.

18th March 2005, 02:45 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is interesting that the best (available!) books on the subject of "Oriental" arms and armour are of European authorship: Persian weapons by Chodynski, Turkish by Astvatsaturyan, Indian and Arabian by Elgood , Indonesian by van Zonneveld, African by Spring, a whole slew by the Brits (Rawson, Robinson, Egerton, North) and , of course, encyclopedias by Stone , Blair/Tarassuk , and major works by Nicolle and Lebedynsky. The Japanese wrote very extensively on their own weapons, but with this exception I am aware only of Pant's 3-volume set on Indian weapons and the new Ensiklopedia Kris (don't have it and forgot the name) as "native" books. Is it because of the "academic pursuits" encouraged in the Western cultures or simply because we are just plain ignorant on the local scholarship? Are there any truly important books on Oriental arms written by the native authors? I do not want my input to be misconstrued as "Eurocentric" and dismissive of native scholarship; on the contrary, I really would like to get some info on important " horse's mouth" books.

18th March 2005, 04:35 AM	#7
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I can't speak for all the orient, but with respect to caucasian weapons I've noticed (partly on my example) that the arrogance "I'm caucasian I know about these things" is probably the most dangerous factor. The notion that there is some genetic caucasian "culture" that allows one to understand and know kindjals and shashkas without reading books is so dominant that sometimes it's impossible to even discuss anything. I've heard that similar attitude is prelevant in Japan.

18th March 2005, 05:17 PM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Rivkin, the fact that you are Caucasian does not mean anything here on the forum. What means something, is to help others with lesser knowledge than oneself, and I think you have done fine so far in the discussions on ‘Magnetic’. I must also say, that I think Ariel has a point. There have not, so far been many books published in English, which is the language the most members on this forum reads, by authors from where the weapons we try to learn about come. I, like several of the members on this forum, am unfortunate not to read or speak more than three or four languages, and can therefore not read book written in languages from far away. I am sorry it is so, but this has nothing to do with anyone’s nationality – it is a lack of linguistic. Jens

18th March 2005, 09:15 PM	#10
B.I Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 485	OUTSTANDING!!!! Thank you kindly for spending my money i shall look forward to the search for these references. do you have access to all of these in the museum? if so, can i get some answers on questions i may get in the future (about content of a particular book)?

18th March 2005, 09:42 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	wolviex, I think we can thank ourselves, that we have a member like you amongst us. Jens