UK bans Japanese swords.

Montino Bourbon · 19th December 2007, 02:18 AM

I wrote this letter to a newspaper that had an article about knives being too easy to buy:

To ‘letters’ at SB independent

Re “Knives a-plenty” by Mike Oak

Mike Oak decries the ease with which knives can be bought, leading to a high murder rate- I would like to point out that in Elizabethan England, one of the most violent times and places in history, most murders were done with... a cudgel! yes, folks, that’s a tree branch, sometimes known as “Piece of wood”, also the most used weapon in the Rwanda genocide.

Given the amount of tree trimming going on in Santa Barbara, these lethal weapons can be found almost anywhere, often for free! I suggest that all tree trimming be halted immediately while a commission can be formed (and paid) to study the problem.

As for taking away our knives, if “Mike Oak” (surely a pseudonym) wants my 8 inch Wusthof chef’s knife, not to mention my immaculate Yokosuka sushi knife, he’ll have to pry my cold, dead fingers from around it.

Sincerely,

Montino Bourbon Del Monte

A. G. Maisey · 19th December 2007, 06:06 AM

Yes, I do have an understanding of the principles of British law, simply because our own laws in Australia descend from those of England, and my living for many years has depended to a degree on having some understanding of Australian legislation.

Spiral, you have cause to be concerned over the enforcement of this legislation, however, once it gets into court it is an entirely different scenario. I urge you to have faith in your judiciary, and in the way in which the legal system functions.

You yourself have identified your biggest problem:- the fact that interested parties would prefer to keep their heads down and not get involved. If you are not prepared to fight for what you want, believe me, somebody will want to take it away from you.

I am certain that there would be one or more national bodies in the UK that would be concerned about this matter. When the legislation is drafted I assume there will once again be a consultative period prior to the legislation being tabled and eventually passed into law. Possibly it might be a good idea to seek legal opinion on the implications of the legislation prior to it being passed into law. If there are objectionable clauses or definitions that could make the legislation unworkable or difficult to enforce, then these things should be brought to the attention of the relevant government minister.

If it does become law and still contains objectionable or unworkable sections, then ideally your interested bodies would chose a candidate to test the law and provide excellent legal support for him.If this line is followed then the precedent can be established in favour of the interested parties.

It is a fact of life that the law favours the wealthy. There is nothing we can do about this. However, many little people can combine resources and provide the necessary support for one of their number to present a convincing argument to establish a favourable interpretation of whatever form the laws may eventually take.

We can only survive these things if we act together. Act alone and we are almost certain to fail.

Tim Simmons · 19th December 2007, 09:40 AM

I do not go to my local supermarket carrying any of my curved swords. So as long as I transport them sensibly when visiting friends fairs to swap or trade with there should be no problem. Are we missing the point ref "use in public display"

Rick · 19th December 2007, 05:43 PM

Speaking of damned good Lawyers ; a certain damned good one got the Florida automatic knife law overturned .

Thanks to this Gentleman I have a nice functional auto at a reasonable price .

There's always hope .

Andrew · 19th December 2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Speaking of damned good Lawyers ; a certain damned good one got the Florida automatic knife law overturned .

Thanks to this Gentleman I have a nice functional auto at a reasonable price .

There's always hope .

He ain't heavy: he's my brother.

A. G. Maisey · 19th December 2007, 09:13 PM

I've got a real soft spot for lawyers.

Over the years they have provided a good part of my income. I'd be a poorer man today if it wasn't for lawyers.

Montino Bourbon · 19th December 2007, 11:17 PM

At the supermarket check-out counter there's really nothing like a 15th century Muramasa daito to clear the riff-raff out of the way... I do it all the time, meself...

Although a good navy hanger is perfect for those moments when a longer sword just gets in the way, you know?

It's interesting to collect deadly weapons and be horrified at the thought of actually having to use it!

spiral · 20th December 2007, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I do not go to my local supermarket carrying any of my curved swords. So as long as I transport them sensibly when visiting friends fairs to swap or trade with there should be no problem. Are we missing the point ref "use in public display"

me niether Tim but I do like to find them at markets, junk shops, ebay uk etc as well as more specialist sources.

Ocasionly I also import the odd one . True they are all ww2 or earlier.

But without precise defintion it will all become rather more awkward I fear.

I agree with your sentiments Alan, but have seen to many laws blindy inforced without reason in the UK to be 100%certan it may not happen again.

Time will tell, Perhaps if I do a thread resurection next December it will proove my concerns unfounded. I certanly hope so.

I dont care about post ww2 swords myself but WW2 & earlier I do find interesting.

Luckily the press havent yet decided kukri are naughty. But the term "the thin edge of the wedge" does spring to mind as well..

Spiral

A. G. Maisey · 20th December 2007, 04:29 AM

Spiral, there is no doubt that as long as laws exist they will be thoughtlessly enforced, carelessly enforced, and enforced in a discriminatory manner. This has ever been so, and I do not believe that things will change in the future.

The police have a job to do, and mostly they do it in accordance with their instructions. If there is any doubt, any possibility of an infringement, they enforce.

However, when the matter comes before the court it is an entirely different ballgame. At that point the person who has been charged has the opportunity to escape conviction, and to establish a precedent that can influence all further cases of a similar nature.

There is a problem, and that is the cost of mounting an effective defense, but that is an entirely different matter to having the opportunity to actually mount the defense.

The UK is not unique in this matter of thoughtless law enforcement. It exists in Australia, and I am sure it exists in all other countries. The important thing is this:- in the system under which you I and I live, we have the opportunity to change the way in which a law is interpreted. We can do this by employing a "champion", ie, a damned good barrister and his "squire", a damned good solicitor. We send these people in to fight our fight for us, and if we have chosen well, and there are chinks in the armour of the law, our champion will drive the lance of his argument right through those chinks.

In effect, our legal system is like a tournament where two knights go to battle, and a judge and jury decides who wins.

Select the right barrister for the fight, and you have a very, very good chance of winning.

Because we have the opportunity to use this system, if some matter of importance becomes subject to a law that can adversely affect us, we are probably well advised to test that law under circumstances that are favourable to us, at the earliest possible opportunity.

If we wait until our antagonists, the people who have fostered this law and nursed it into being, test the law, you can bet on it that the first case, or couple of cases will result in wins for our antagonists, the precedent will be established, and it will become much more difficult in the future to do anything about getting reasonable interpretations of the law.

kronckew · 12th July 2008, 11:35 AM

just thought i'd update this older thread as well as the two newer ones. it might be a good idea for a moderator to merge these into one thread.

anyhow, for those not subscribed to the other two newer threads, there has been some backtracking by the politicians who now recognise they've jumped the starting 'noise production device' (no starting guns allowed here of course).

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

just heard there is to be an amendment to the silliest part of the law, in that countries other than japan who make swords by 'traditional methods' are also to be exempted.

Law Linky

still written in the obscure ancient legalese dialect, but at least they are showing a bit of an 'oops, we screwed up' attitude.

19th December 2007, 02:18 AM	#1
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	Knives, heck! I wrote this letter to a newspaper that had an article about knives being too easy to buy: To ‘letters’ at SB independent Re “Knives a-plenty” by Mike Oak Mike Oak decries the ease with which knives can be bought, leading to a high murder rate- I would like to point out that in Elizabethan England, one of the most violent times and places in history, most murders were done with... a cudgel! yes, folks, that’s a tree branch, sometimes known as “Piece of wood”, also the most used weapon in the Rwanda genocide. Given the amount of tree trimming going on in Santa Barbara, these lethal weapons can be found almost anywhere, often for free! I suggest that all tree trimming be halted immediately while a commission can be formed (and paid) to study the problem. As for taking away our knives, if “Mike Oak” (surely a pseudonym) wants my 8 inch Wusthof chef’s knife, not to mention my immaculate Yokosuka sushi knife, he’ll have to pry my cold, dead fingers from around it. Sincerely, Montino Bourbon Del Monte

19th December 2007, 05:43 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,376	Yes It Takes A Lawyer Speaking of damned good Lawyers ; a certain damned good one got the Florida automatic knife law overturned . Thanks to this Gentleman I have a nice functional auto at a reasonable price . There's always hope .

19th December 2007, 11:17 PM	#7
Montino Bourbon Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Santa Barbara, California Posts: 301	And hey, when the line is long.... At the supermarket check-out counter there's really nothing like a 15th century Muramasa daito to clear the riff-raff out of the way... I do it all the time, meself... Although a good navy hanger is perfect for those moments when a longer sword just gets in the way, you know? It's interesting to collect deadly weapons and be horrified at the thought of actually having to use it!

19th December 2007, 06:06 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Yes, I do have an understanding of the principles of British law, simply because our own laws in Australia descend from those of England, and my living for many years has depended to a degree on having some understanding of Australian legislation. Spiral, you have cause to be concerned over the enforcement of this legislation, however, once it gets into court it is an entirely different scenario. I urge you to have faith in your judiciary, and in the way in which the legal system functions. You yourself have identified your biggest problem:- the fact that interested parties would prefer to keep their heads down and not get involved. If you are not prepared to fight for what you want, believe me, somebody will want to take it away from you. I am certain that there would be one or more national bodies in the UK that would be concerned about this matter. When the legislation is drafted I assume there will once again be a consultative period prior to the legislation being tabled and eventually passed into law. Possibly it might be a good idea to seek legal opinion on the implications of the legislation prior to it being passed into law. If there are objectionable clauses or definitions that could make the legislation unworkable or difficult to enforce, then these things should be brought to the attention of the relevant government minister. If it does become law and still contains objectionable or unworkable sections, then ideally your interested bodies would chose a candidate to test the law and provide excellent legal support for him.If this line is followed then the precedent can be established in favour of the interested parties. It is a fact of life that the law favours the wealthy. There is nothing we can do about this. However, many little people can combine resources and provide the necessary support for one of their number to present a convincing argument to establish a favourable interpretation of whatever form the laws may eventually take. We can only survive these things if we act together. Act alone and we are almost certain to fail.

19th December 2007, 09:40 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	I do not go to my local supermarket carrying any of my curved swords. So as long as I transport them sensibly when visiting friends fairs to swap or trade with there should be no problem. Are we missing the point ref "use in public display"

19th December 2007, 09:13 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	I've got a real soft spot for lawyers. Over the years they have provided a good part of my income. I'd be a poorer man today if it wasn't for lawyers.

20th December 2007, 04:29 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,085	Spiral, there is no doubt that as long as laws exist they will be thoughtlessly enforced, carelessly enforced, and enforced in a discriminatory manner. This has ever been so, and I do not believe that things will change in the future. The police have a job to do, and mostly they do it in accordance with their instructions. If there is any doubt, any possibility of an infringement, they enforce. However, when the matter comes before the court it is an entirely different ballgame. At that point the person who has been charged has the opportunity to escape conviction, and to establish a precedent that can influence all further cases of a similar nature. There is a problem, and that is the cost of mounting an effective defense, but that is an entirely different matter to having the opportunity to actually mount the defense. The UK is not unique in this matter of thoughtless law enforcement. It exists in Australia, and I am sure it exists in all other countries. The important thing is this:- in the system under which you I and I live, we have the opportunity to change the way in which a law is interpreted. We can do this by employing a "champion", ie, a damned good barrister and his "squire", a damned good solicitor. We send these people in to fight our fight for us, and if we have chosen well, and there are chinks in the armour of the law, our champion will drive the lance of his argument right through those chinks. In effect, our legal system is like a tournament where two knights go to battle, and a judge and jury decides who wins. Select the right barrister for the fight, and you have a very, very good chance of winning. Because we have the opportunity to use this system, if some matter of importance becomes subject to a law that can adversely affect us, we are probably well advised to test that law under circumstances that are favourable to us, at the earliest possible opportunity. If we wait until our antagonists, the people who have fostered this law and nursed it into being, test the law, you can bet on it that the first case, or couple of cases will result in wins for our antagonists, the precedent will be established, and it will become much more difficult in the future to do anything about getting reasonable interpretations of the law.