Karabela for comment

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2007, 05:01 AM

Teodor,
Thanks for the additional photo of the guard. I once had a sabre much like this, in nearly the same condition. The guard was exactly the same and the hilt was of roughly the smooth pommel Ottoman form. The blade was a heavy one like this with an inscription in the center which seemed possibly Polish, but cannot recall. It turned out to be indeed Arab.....as rough as it was, I wish I still had it!
When I bought it back in the 1970's from a dealer, it was listed as a 17th century Hungarian hussars sabre.

All best regards,
Jim

Jeff D · 24th December 2007, 09:52 PM

Thanks for the too kind words

As Jim has expertly noted the hilt form is Ottoman and of course covers a large geographic area. Here are a couple more Ottoman hilts from Swords and Hilt Weapons
Thanks for the better shots of the hilt, It is always great to collect as much data as we can.

All the Best
Jeff

ariel · 25th December 2007, 03:03 AM

Well, gentlemen, we are entering a new topic: the origin of the Karabela handle. Persian? Turkish? Arabian? ( I doubt the latter, but just for the sake of completeness).
We were led to believe that the "eagle head" handle was invented by Shah Abbas himself who got the idea observing the silhouettes of the windows at the shrine in Karbala ( I am not mentioning the author of this hypothesis, but it was published in a very big book).
The fact (as I understand it) that the shrine was not even built at that time presents a slight inconvenience...( to me, not to the author).
The popularity of these handles in Balkan countries and in Hungary suggests to me that the original source was Turkish. Also, karabelas were mentioned in Polish books and depicted in Polish sources well before Poles established friendly relations with the Persians, but well into their long and bloody wars with the Turks. The Ottoman origin of the" eaglehead" handle also explains its popularity in Arabia.
Did it come from the locality named Karabel ( Near Izmir?)

TVV · 25th December 2007, 05:19 AM

The question about the origin of the karabela hilt is a hard one, from what I have read so far, perhaps just as hard as determining what the name "karabela" originates from - is it "black curse" in Turkish, Kerbala, or Karabel near Izmir?
I wonder whether it would be best to first see where this hilt form gained popularity, such as Poland, Arabia, Balkans, etc. and then start eliminating certain regions from the list of potential candidates?

Jeff D · 25th December 2007, 08:55 PM

Great idea Ariel, and thanks Teodor for letting us divert your thread.

The "big book" is a good accumulation of information on shamshirs and brings to light many example that would not have been seen in the west. Unfortunately the book was original intended for the Cultural Heritage Instutution of Iran and is therefore very pro aryan (at times may have made even Leni Riefenstahl blush). The text has to be veiwed in this context.
The origins of the karabela style hilt has been postulated as Polish, Persian and European. Oliver Pinchot discusses it briefly in his article The Persian Shamshir and the signature of Assad Allah Below is a copy of portraits of Shaw Abbas, Shah Safi and Shaw Abbas II with what appears to be Karabela style shamshirs. These portrates are circa 1633. He reiterates the theory that Sha Abbas may have encountered this style of hilt during the reconquering of Karbala in 1623.
The possibility of it reaching Poland from Persia (although not specifically stated) may have began with trade missions started in 1601.
Oliver goes on to quote Ostrowski and Bochnak in Note 16 that the hilt style did not appear in Poland until after the Relief of the seige of Vienna in 1683.
Elgood on Pg 15 ofThe Arms and Armour of Arabia Supports the idea that the political ties between Poland and Persia, united to fend of the Ottomans, may have been the source of this hilt style.
Nadolski in Polish Arms-Side Arms on Pg 36 also suggests the Karbala origin.
Yet by the Seige of Vienna in 1683 completely mature forms of the Karabella style hilted saber are seen illustrated below from Fig 150 Odsiecz Wiedenska 1683 . This saber was used in the campaign and has a clearly Ottoman blade (mountings?), suggesting a Ottoman captured piece.
I think at this time the concensus is a Persian origin for the style, but, an Ottoman origin seems to me very possible. I will see if i can find more.

All the best
Jeff

TVV · 25th December 2007, 11:02 PM

Jeff, I do not mond diverting the thread a bit - after all, this forum's purpose is the enhancement of our knowledge about the things we collect. I wonder whether there is any evidence that the karabela hilt became popular in areas under strong Persian influence, such as Central Asia and Northern India? If the form originated in Persia, it is logical that it should have spread in the regions, where Persian fashions were followed.

TVV · 26th December 2007, 03:00 AM

I was searching for other info when I accidentally stumbled upon a sword with a karabela hilt and a little different crossguard with down-turned quillons in a book about the weapons of Peter the Great. The description states that the blade is wootz, the hilt is made of tortoise shell, and that the crossguard, scabbard mouth and scabbard chape are marked with the tugra of Sultan Ahmed I (1603-1617). Perhaps another clue pointing towards Ottoman origin.

Jeff D · 26th December 2007, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Jeff, I do not mond diverting the thread a bit - after all, this forum's purpose is the enhancement of our knowledge about the things we collect. I wonder whether there is any evidence that the karabela hilt became popular in areas under strong Persian influence, such as Central Asia and Northern India? If the form originated in Persia, it is logical that it should have spread in the regions, where Persian fashions were followed.

Great observation Teodor,

To my knowledge, Central Asia essentially used the classic persian shamshir hilt as well as their own local/regional styles ie Bukhara hilts, shashka like etc.. I will await Ariels observation as he is much more familiar with this region then myself. North India again favored the Tulwar and classic shamshir hilt, animal motifs are also seen but I cannot think of any Indian made Karabella hilts (they must exist, if only for export).
The style was mass produced in Poland, Saxony and Russia as well as the middle east (Nadolski Pg36-37).
I like your epicenter approach.

Best of the Season
Jeff

24th December 2007, 09:52 PM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thanks for the too kind words As Jim has expertly noted the hilt form is Ottoman and of course covers a large geographic area. Here are a couple more Ottoman hilts from Swords and Hilt Weapons Thanks for the better shots of the hilt, It is always great to collect as much data as we can. All the Best Jeff Attached Images

25th December 2007, 08:55 PM	#5
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Great idea Ariel, and thanks Teodor for letting us divert your thread. The "big book" is a good accumulation of information on shamshirs and brings to light many example that would not have been seen in the west. Unfortunately the book was original intended for the Cultural Heritage Instutution of Iran and is therefore very pro aryan (at times may have made even Leni Riefenstahl blush). The text has to be veiwed in this context. The origins of the karabela style hilt has been postulated as Polish, Persian and European. Oliver Pinchot discusses it briefly in his article The Persian Shamshir and the signature of Assad Allah Below is a copy of portraits of Shaw Abbas, Shah Safi and Shaw Abbas II with what appears to be Karabela style shamshirs. These portrates are circa 1633. He reiterates the theory that Sha Abbas may have encountered this style of hilt during the reconquering of Karbala in 1623. The possibility of it reaching Poland from Persia (although not specifically stated) may have began with trade missions started in 1601. Oliver goes on to quote Ostrowski and Bochnak in Note 16 that the hilt style did not appear in Poland until after the Relief of the seige of Vienna in 1683. Elgood on Pg 15 ofThe Arms and Armour of Arabia Supports the idea that the political ties between Poland and Persia, united to fend of the Ottomans, may have been the source of this hilt style. Nadolski in Polish Arms-Side Arms on Pg 36 also suggests the Karbala origin. Yet by the Seige of Vienna in 1683 completely mature forms of the Karabella style hilted saber are seen illustrated below from Fig 150 Odsiecz Wiedenska 1683 . This saber was used in the campaign and has a clearly Ottoman blade (mountings?), suggesting a Ottoman captured piece. I think at this time the concensus is a Persian origin for the style, but, an Ottoman origin seems to me very possible. I will see if i can find more. All the best Jeff Attached Images

26th December 2007, 03:00 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	I was searching for other info when I accidentally stumbled upon a sword with a karabela hilt and a little different crossguard with down-turned quillons in a book about the weapons of Peter the Great. The description states that the blade is wootz, the hilt is made of tortoise shell, and that the crossguard, scabbard mouth and scabbard chape are marked with the tugra of Sultan Ahmed I (1603-1617). Perhaps another clue pointing towards Ottoman origin. Attached Images

16th December 2007, 05:01 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,193	Teodor, Thanks for the additional photo of the guard. I once had a sabre much like this, in nearly the same condition. The guard was exactly the same and the hilt was of roughly the smooth pommel Ottoman form. The blade was a heavy one like this with an inscription in the center which seemed possibly Polish, but cannot recall. It turned out to be indeed Arab.....as rough as it was, I wish I still had it! When I bought it back in the 1970's from a dealer, it was listed as a 17th century Hungarian hussars sabre. All best regards, Jim

25th December 2007, 03:03 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Well, gentlemen, we are entering a new topic: the origin of the Karabela handle. Persian? Turkish? Arabian? ( I doubt the latter, but just for the sake of completeness). We were led to believe that the "eagle head" handle was invented by Shah Abbas himself who got the idea observing the silhouettes of the windows at the shrine in Karbala ( I am not mentioning the author of this hypothesis, but it was published in a very big book). The fact (as I understand it) that the shrine was not even built at that time presents a slight inconvenience...( to me, not to the author). The popularity of these handles in Balkan countries and in Hungary suggests to me that the original source was Turkish. Also, karabelas were mentioned in Polish books and depicted in Polish sources well before Poles established friendly relations with the Persians, but well into their long and bloody wars with the Turks. The Ottoman origin of the" eaglehead" handle also explains its popularity in Arabia. Did it come from the locality named Karabel ( Near Izmir?)

25th December 2007, 05:19 AM	#4
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	The question about the origin of the karabela hilt is a hard one, from what I have read so far, perhaps just as hard as determining what the name "karabela" originates from - is it "black curse" in Turkish, Kerbala, or Karabel near Izmir? I wonder whether it would be best to first see where this hilt form gained popularity, such as Poland, Arabia, Balkans, etc. and then start eliminating certain regions from the list of potential candidates?

25th December 2007, 11:02 PM	#6
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,660	Jeff, I do not mond diverting the thread a bit - after all, this forum's purpose is the enhancement of our knowledge about the things we collect. I wonder whether there is any evidence that the karabela hilt became popular in areas under strong Persian influence, such as Central Asia and Northern India? If the form originated in Persia, it is logical that it should have spread in the regions, where Persian fashions were followed.