Mandara mountains tabouka

Jeff Pringle · 13th December 2007, 03:45 PM

As a swordsmith with extensive forgewelding experience who has shared shop space with welders and architectural blacksmiths, I’d have to say the discontinuity in the metal of this blade appears to be completely consistent with an arc/gas weld done long after the forging of the blade.
It would be impossible to get the metal to look that way via a forge welding process.
That’s what the photos are saying, but of course I defer judgment to those who can see the actual sword.

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2007, 05:11 PM

Thank you Tim!

Tim Simmons · 13th December 2007, 05:57 PM

It is probably best to have an open verdict on the weld. In my opinion it was done at the time of and in the forging of the blade. My reasons are-

The lack of any burn at the site, bluing or straw discolouration . There is only the most basic finishing to the metal. A new weld on any piece of metal would make rather a lot of mess. Even a high tech spot weld leaves a blue halo.

You can see in the pictures thin metal layers are worked and spread by hammer action. I have some other African pieces I will get day light pictures of to make comparisons with.

Finally and not wanting to be rude to anyone. Perhaps the work is skilled and delicate beyond the average metalworker particularly when they are really only used to working in a western environment with plentiful western materials.

Would such a large later added weld not affect the temper? The temper is even through the blade.

Tim Simmons · 13th December 2007, 07:58 PM

look at these neat little gas welds. There are places around the sword weld that have not been cleaned. There does not seem to be any signs of the latter application of massive heat.

I bet this chap thinks he is a really smart dude. He probably wares boots and gloves, and has a work bench!

katana · 13th December 2007, 09:10 PM

Hi Tim,
the small neat welds on the bike tank are tack welds, to hold its 'structure' before the final welded seam.

If the blade was indeed arc/gas welded, it could easily be done in small increments leaving the blade to cool 'between' welds. This would limit heat transference (by convection) to the surrounding blade. The heat with welding tends to be 'localised' to the immediate area (dependent on duration of welding, thickness of metal, etc)
Also I have found a technique whereby the 'hot' weld is hammered to limit welding distortion.

If this technique was used on this blade ...it could explain the confusion.

"....Welding Distortion

Welding Distortion is caused by the localised heat that welding creates along with shrinking of the weld metal as the weld cools. It is difficult to avoid welding distortion but a few simple steps will help minimise the problem. If possible plan the job to avoid long welding runs. If long welding runs are unavoidable use plenty of tacks, weld with the welder turned as low as possible and do a series of short welding runs, allowing the workpiece to cool between welding runs. Using backing plates to help take welding heat away will also help.

Welding Distortion can be corrected from butt and outside corner welds by peening. Do this by holding a metal block behind the weld and peening evenly along the weld with a hammer. This process stretches the weld metal to correct the shrinking that occurred during cooling. Avoid over peening as this will overstretch the weld and re-distort the workpiece....."

http://www.thewelderswarehouse.com/welding.html

Kind Regards David

Tim Simmons · 13th December 2007, 09:31 PM

David that is very helpful.
I just have the feeling that there is a certain lack of understanding about the the source, value and quality of the materials involved. The difficulties they presented I think we do not understand. It is clear to see the sword is not made from the finest trade steel.
To look at working this valuable material as if it were common place and easily affordable is blinding us to the skill and determination needed to create the sword. It is easy today to make swords when you can buy very good steel to work and play with. If you have a bad batch of steel "unlikely" you would just send it back. I would suggest the sword in question was a struggle to make presentable to the client. You have to admit there are no signs of heat distress.

The fellow that made this probably only had a rag covering his privates. Worked on his haunches without boots or gloves and swore like a trooper at the boys he had helping as it was becoming harder and harder to finish.

Jeff Pringle · 14th December 2007, 03:13 PM

Quote:

In my opinion it was done at the time of and in the forging of the blade. My reasons are-

The lack of any burn at the site, bluing or straw discolouration .
...
Finally and not wanting to be rude to anyone. Perhaps the work is skilled and delicate beyond the average metalworker particularly when they are really only used to working in a western environment with plentiful western materials.
...
Would such a large later added weld not affect the temper? The temper is even through the blade.

Just more FYI, apologies for any annoyance

–

The discoloration around weld zones is an oxide layer on the surface of the metal. It is measured in angstroms, usually several hundred to a few thousand. Wavelengths of light are also measured in angstroms, they are used for very tiny things. The discoloration can be removed from steel by rubbing with dirt (the traditional method used throughout history, around the world) and it does not take long, or affect the surface of the steel to any significant degree.

Skilled forgewelds (and arcwelds, for that matter) even in very primitive cultures can only be detected by polishing and etching the surface, or by x-ray.

Temper would be affected by a later weld, but how did you test your blade to determine the uniformity of the temper?

Quote:

I just have the feeling that there is a certain lack of understanding about the the source, value and quality of the materials involved. The difficulties they presented I think we do not understand.

If there is anything I can do to help, let me know. Since I smelt metal from ore in a small furnace not too far removed from the traditional small iron smelting furnaces used around the world (electric blower instead of bellows as a nod to the modern conveniences

), I could go on for hours about how valuable that hard-won steel is, compared to store-bought stuff that comes in convenient ready-to-forge sizes and all.

katana · 14th December 2007, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

David that is very helpful.
I just have the feeling that there is a certain lack of understanding about the the source, value and quality of the materials involved. The difficulties they presented I think we do not understand. It is clear to see the sword is not made from the finest trade steel.
To look at working this valuable material as if it were common place and easily affordable is blinding us to the skill and determination needed to create the sword. It is easy today to make swords when you can buy very good steel to work and play with. If you have a bad batch of steel "unlikely" you would just send it back. I would suggest the sword in question was a struggle to make presentable to the client. You have to admit there are no signs of heat distress.

The fellow that made this probably only had a rag covering his privates. Worked on his haunches without boots or gloves and swore like a trooper at the boys he had helping as it was becoming harder and harder to finish.

Hi Tim,
I really did not want to labour the point. You have acquired an interesting sword

Which I had 'dismissed' as possibly 'Tebu' or neighbouring regions

and I feel that unfortunately the 'weld' has taken up more of this thread that it should. I would prefer to talk about the sword and the swords social and historical context.

Intriqued by the possibillity of forging techniques used in Africa that were not known, as you seemed to have suggested.

I did a little research, sorry Tim but the Mandara region has been involved in Iron smelting and 'smithing' for centuries. The skill of the metal workers was well known.

"...... Iron is found in abundance in all the Mandara hills. All the houses, or huts, at Mandara hare outer doors to the court, which are made of pieces of wood, hasped together with iron. They make hinges, small bars, and a sort of hoe, used to weed the corn, and send them for sale to the Bornou towns ...."

A System of Geography, Popular and Scientific: Or A Physical, Political, and ...
By James Bell Published 1832

Early Iron Age sites (2,600-1,900 BC)

In west and central Africa, iron working developed in the
Mandara Mountains, on the borders of Nigeria and the
Cameroon, and in the area around Yaoundé in the south of
Cameroon around 2,600 BC.

http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:h...nk&cd=49&gl=uk

I also believe that the sword was most likely made as a functional weapon. During the 'slavery' period ....other tribes commonly raided the Mandara hill areas to capture slaves and take other commodities. Weapons to protect themselves is mention in a number of resources.

Regards David

13th December 2007, 05:57 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	It is probably best to have an open verdict on the weld. In my opinion it was done at the time of and in the forging of the blade. My reasons are- The lack of any burn at the site, bluing or straw discolouration . There is only the most basic finishing to the metal. A new weld on any piece of metal would make rather a lot of mess. Even a high tech spot weld leaves a blue halo. You can see in the pictures thin metal layers are worked and spread by hammer action. I have some other African pieces I will get day light pictures of to make comparisons with. Finally and not wanting to be rude to anyone. Perhaps the work is skilled and delicate beyond the average metalworker particularly when they are really only used to working in a western environment with plentiful western materials. Would such a large later added weld not affect the temper? The temper is even through the blade. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 13th December 2007 at 07:22 PM. Reason: spelling

13th December 2007, 03:45 PM	#1
Jeff Pringle Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 189	As a swordsmith with extensive forgewelding experience who has shared shop space with welders and architectural blacksmiths, I’d have to say the discontinuity in the metal of this blade appears to be completely consistent with an arc/gas weld done long after the forging of the blade. It would be impossible to get the metal to look that way via a forge welding process. That’s what the photos are saying, but of course I defer judgment to those who can see the actual sword.

13th December 2007, 05:11 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Thank you Tim!

13th December 2007, 07:58 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	look at these neat little gas welds. There are places around the sword weld that have not been cleaned. There does not seem to be any signs of the latter application of massive heat. I bet this chap thinks he is a really smart dude. He probably wares boots and gloves, and has a work bench!

13th December 2007, 09:10 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Tim, the small neat welds on the bike tank are tack welds, to hold its 'structure' before the final welded seam. If the blade was indeed arc/gas welded, it could easily be done in small increments leaving the blade to cool 'between' welds. This would limit heat transference (by convection) to the surrounding blade. The heat with welding tends to be 'localised' to the immediate area (dependent on duration of welding, thickness of metal, etc) Also I have found a technique whereby the 'hot' weld is hammered to limit welding distortion. If this technique was used on this blade ...it could explain the confusion. "....Welding Distortion Welding Distortion is caused by the localised heat that welding creates along with shrinking of the weld metal as the weld cools. It is difficult to avoid welding distortion but a few simple steps will help minimise the problem. If possible plan the job to avoid long welding runs. If long welding runs are unavoidable use plenty of tacks, weld with the welder turned as low as possible and do a series of short welding runs, allowing the workpiece to cool between welding runs. Using backing plates to help take welding heat away will also help. Welding Distortion can be corrected from butt and outside corner welds by peening. Do this by holding a metal block behind the weld and peening evenly along the weld with a hammer. This process stretches the weld metal to correct the shrinking that occurred during cooling. Avoid over peening as this will overstretch the weld and re-distort the workpiece....." http://www.thewelderswarehouse.com/welding.html Kind Regards David

13th December 2007, 09:31 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,875	David that is very helpful. I just have the feeling that there is a certain lack of understanding about the the source, value and quality of the materials involved. The difficulties they presented I think we do not understand. It is clear to see the sword is not made from the finest trade steel. To look at working this valuable material as if it were common place and easily affordable is blinding us to the skill and determination needed to create the sword. It is easy today to make swords when you can buy very good steel to work and play with. If you have a bad batch of steel "unlikely" you would just send it back. I would suggest the sword in question was a struggle to make presentable to the client. You have to admit there are no signs of heat distress. The fellow that made this probably only had a rag covering his privates. Worked on his haunches without boots or gloves and swore like a trooper at the boys he had helping as it was becoming harder and harder to finish.