Tulwar Inscription

Norman McCormick · 10th December 2007, 08:02 PM

Hello Lee,
Many thanks for the welcome. I was getting rather concerned that members who had replied to this post would think that I was disinterested or rude by not replying to their questions. This is, I hope, now evident that this is not the case. My original post appeared very quickly but subsequent replies seem to have got stuck in a queue, I appreciate fully the need for caution with regard to new recruits and I hope those who did reply to my question understand the confusion. I have a few more bits and pieces which I think will be of interest to members and look forward to posting these in the future. Many thanks to those who have taken an interest in this post and I look forward to, hopefully, getting to the bottom of this mystery.
Regards,
Norman.

spiral · 10th December 2007, 08:13 PM

Glad you got that sorted Norman

Nice sword.

I have a bayonet with similar script Jim, Ill take a photo, I belive my bayonet is inscribed in a form of Dari.

Heres the scribed form of it although mine is inscibed in a squarer more angular fashion.

Not certan but this sword inscription reminds me of some of it.

I have noticed Afghan swords have that rivet as well although I dont know howe common it was elswhere.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 10th December 2007, 08:50 PM

Hi Norman,
I'm really glad to see you posting here, and I'm glad you brought your interesting tulwar to us for discussion. I regret any difficulties encountered and am glad its resolved! I'm hoping you'll stay with us, and very much look forward to seeing the other items you mentioned as well.

Thank you for showing us the entire weapon, which does remind me in seeing it overall, of tulwars which seem likely of far northern borders, close to Afghanistan. Spirals comment on having seen similar script on old Afghan weapons seems of course to have been very much on target, now that I see the sword. His comment on the centrally placed rivet in the chowk recalling Afghan swords is equally well placed (see 'good news, bad news tulwar').
The scabbard with heavy chape component and overall appearance seems Afghan, and further suggests tulwars which quite likely diffused from Northwest Frontier regions into Afghanistan. Although many of the weapons of Afghanistan are distinctly recognized, such as the paluoar, the Khyber knife, the lohar ...there is a diversity of weapons from congruent regions also such as the tulwars as noted, shashkas and developed weapons of British influence at the end of the 19th century.

Spiral, thank you for including that script, it does seem that the tribal languages of these regions might reveal script similar to the marks on Norman's tulwar. Any thoughts on the floral motif along the blade? In looking at the circle and three dots, could this have to do with the 'cintamani' often appearing in Central Asian motif? I know sometimes it is three dots with lines below suggesting tiger stripes, but maybe this has some association?

Lee, thank you for the explanation concerning the technical issues,
and Norman thank you again for your patience!

All very best regards,
Jim

spiral · 10th December 2007, 10:56 PM

Jim, the only floral Afghan work I can tottaly recall is on a Tribal Afghan kukri scabbard i have. Cant recall it on a blade. Think I have seen similar on Poulwar scabbards though but have no examples to hand.

Heres the bayonet marking with the above Dari script is a squarer form. {presumably the tools & level of illitracy amongst the armoury workers plays a role in the shaping of the letters.

From this thread.

linky

I have no knowledge of the term 'cintamani' I know the presumed more usual meaning of 3 dots with Hindu weaponary but thats a different subject.

But I also notice 1,2,& 3 dots appear to be used for some linguistic or gramatical meaning in Dari.

i ll see if I already have photos of my Afghan floral scabbard online, if not Ill take & post some.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 11th December 2007, 04:19 AM

Thank you for the additional photo of the script Spiral. The figures you show do have a certain resemblance to those on Norman's example. They seem rather loose and open in similar manner, but I cant say they are the same. Returning to the term 'cintamani' (or chintamani) that I mentioned. This term in what I understand is basically a symbol usually three spots (for leopard) over lines (tiger) and used in textile and other material culture motif in Central Asia. I have seen shamshirs considered from these regions that carried motif of a circle topped by three dots on the hilt, with the explanation that this symbolism reflected tribal pride in Timirud ancestry.

This symbol on the blade seems to concur with regions we are considering for this sword. What is most interesting is that it appears over the central figure in this inscription almost positioned as a diacritic. While obviously I am not a linguist, I suggest this simply as an analogy.

The blade on this tulwar also seems much like Central Asian shamshirs I have seen with heavy blades carrying subtle yelman widening the blade point.

Sure would like to pin that floral/vegetal motif on the back of the blade.

All best regards,
Jim

spiral · 12th December 2007, 10:31 PM

Hi Jim, yes I can see why its hard to see the resemblance with the script on my bayonet, but I saw a group of I think it was 8 bayonets from Afghanistan {From which I got my particular one.} Some of the script was much more curved & flowing , I got my bayonet for its Mazar al sharrif markings & condition , some of the others had better script & more script.

The script was also on some Afghan Martinis that were imported at the same time.

The usual inscription from Mazar al sharrif weopons when inscribed are Dari according to the fellows who brought them back.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 13th December 2007, 12:55 AM

I agree Spiral, that varying degree of literacy and skill would certainly be a factor in the structure of the lettering, and I'm inclined to agree as well that this script seems more like the Dari you note. It is interesting that Dari was from what I understand a Persian based court language spoken in Afghanistan, and this blade seems to be of Persian form. In Egerton (#755, plate XV) there is a shamshir illustrated with remarkably similar blade, including a linear motif which cannot be clearly seen, but since it is a drawn illustration may well be the floral motif seen on Norman's blade. The widened yelman is also present. The shamshir is captioned as from Lahore, but of course since those of prominence in Indian courts favored Persian blades, this may be indicative of a blade form for Afghans in similar station.

It seems these characters in the inscription may be initials or abbreviated wording, name? I still feel the 'cintamani' symbol is intended with the marking to allude to Timurud ancestry, in the manner that certain symbols or marks might accompany someones personal autograph or marking.

Thanks very much Spiral for setting the course on this. Always a great learning experience!

All the best,
Jim

10th December 2007, 08:13 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Glad you got that sorted Norman Nice sword. I have a bayonet with similar script Jim, Ill take a photo, I belive my bayonet is inscribed in a form of Dari. Heres the scribed form of it although mine is inscibed in a squarer more angular fashion. Not certan but this sword inscription reminds me of some of it. I have noticed Afghan swords have that rivet as well although I dont know howe common it was elswhere. Spiral Attached Images

10th December 2007, 08:02 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,613	Hello Lee, Many thanks for the welcome. I was getting rather concerned that members who had replied to this post would think that I was disinterested or rude by not replying to their questions. This is, I hope, now evident that this is not the case. My original post appeared very quickly but subsequent replies seem to have got stuck in a queue, I appreciate fully the need for caution with regard to new recruits and I hope those who did reply to my question understand the confusion. I have a few more bits and pieces which I think will be of interest to members and look forward to posting these in the future. Many thanks to those who have taken an interest in this post and I look forward to, hopefully, getting to the bottom of this mystery. Regards, Norman.

10th December 2007, 08:50 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,198	Hi Norman, I'm really glad to see you posting here, and I'm glad you brought your interesting tulwar to us for discussion. I regret any difficulties encountered and am glad its resolved! I'm hoping you'll stay with us, and very much look forward to seeing the other items you mentioned as well. Thank you for showing us the entire weapon, which does remind me in seeing it overall, of tulwars which seem likely of far northern borders, close to Afghanistan. Spirals comment on having seen similar script on old Afghan weapons seems of course to have been very much on target, now that I see the sword. His comment on the centrally placed rivet in the chowk recalling Afghan swords is equally well placed (see 'good news, bad news tulwar'). The scabbard with heavy chape component and overall appearance seems Afghan, and further suggests tulwars which quite likely diffused from Northwest Frontier regions into Afghanistan. Although many of the weapons of Afghanistan are distinctly recognized, such as the paluoar, the Khyber knife, the lohar ...there is a diversity of weapons from congruent regions also such as the tulwars as noted, shashkas and developed weapons of British influence at the end of the 19th century. Spiral, thank you for including that script, it does seem that the tribal languages of these regions might reveal script similar to the marks on Norman's tulwar. Any thoughts on the floral motif along the blade? In looking at the circle and three dots, could this have to do with the 'cintamani' often appearing in Central Asian motif? I know sometimes it is three dots with lines below suggesting tiger stripes, but maybe this has some association? Lee, thank you for the explanation concerning the technical issues, and Norman thank you again for your patience! All very best regards, Jim

10th December 2007, 10:56 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Jim, the only floral Afghan work I can tottaly recall is on a Tribal Afghan kukri scabbard i have. Cant recall it on a blade. Think I have seen similar on Poulwar scabbards though but have no examples to hand. Heres the bayonet marking with the above Dari script is a squarer form. {presumably the tools & level of illitracy amongst the armoury workers plays a role in the shaping of the letters. From this thread. linky I have no knowledge of the term 'cintamani' I know the presumed more usual meaning of 3 dots with Hindu weaponary but thats a different subject. But I also notice 1,2,& 3 dots appear to be used for some linguistic or gramatical meaning in Dari. i ll see if I already have photos of my Afghan floral scabbard online, if not Ill take & post some. Spiral

11th December 2007, 04:19 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,198	Thank you for the additional photo of the script Spiral. The figures you show do have a certain resemblance to those on Norman's example. They seem rather loose and open in similar manner, but I cant say they are the same. Returning to the term 'cintamani' (or chintamani) that I mentioned. This term in what I understand is basically a symbol usually three spots (for leopard) over lines (tiger) and used in textile and other material culture motif in Central Asia. I have seen shamshirs considered from these regions that carried motif of a circle topped by three dots on the hilt, with the explanation that this symbolism reflected tribal pride in Timirud ancestry. This symbol on the blade seems to concur with regions we are considering for this sword. What is most interesting is that it appears over the central figure in this inscription almost positioned as a diacritic. While obviously I am not a linguist, I suggest this simply as an analogy. The blade on this tulwar also seems much like Central Asian shamshirs I have seen with heavy blades carrying subtle yelman widening the blade point. Sure would like to pin that floral/vegetal motif on the back of the blade. All best regards, Jim

12th December 2007, 10:31 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Hi Jim, yes I can see why its hard to see the resemblance with the script on my bayonet, but I saw a group of I think it was 8 bayonets from Afghanistan {From which I got my particular one.} Some of the script was much more curved & flowing , I got my bayonet for its Mazar al sharrif markings & condition , some of the others had better script & more script. The script was also on some Afghan Martinis that were imported at the same time. The usual inscription from Mazar al sharrif weopons when inscribed are Dari according to the fellows who brought them back. Spiral

13th December 2007, 12:55 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,198	I agree Spiral, that varying degree of literacy and skill would certainly be a factor in the structure of the lettering, and I'm inclined to agree as well that this script seems more like the Dari you note. It is interesting that Dari was from what I understand a Persian based court language spoken in Afghanistan, and this blade seems to be of Persian form. In Egerton (#755, plate XV) there is a shamshir illustrated with remarkably similar blade, including a linear motif which cannot be clearly seen, but since it is a drawn illustration may well be the floral motif seen on Norman's blade. The widened yelman is also present. The shamshir is captioned as from Lahore, but of course since those of prominence in Indian courts favored Persian blades, this may be indicative of a blade form for Afghans in similar station. It seems these characters in the inscription may be initials or abbreviated wording, name? I still feel the 'cintamani' symbol is intended with the marking to allude to Timurud ancestry, in the manner that certain symbols or marks might accompany someones personal autograph or marking. Thanks very much Spiral for setting the course on this. Always a great learning experience! All the best, Jim