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10th December 2007, 01:44 AM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 103
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Dear Michel,
I'm terribly sorry to hear that you became frustrated on learning Indonesian, and keris terminology, specifically. Keris's terminology, especially Javanese keris terminology, is a highly specialized terminology. It came from Javanese language, not Indonesian. Today, even an ordinary Javanese, which was born and speak Javanese every day, is not 'guarantee' to understand some specific keris's jargons such as ganja, greneng, or mendhak. It is a highly specialized jargon for special peoples : keris lover  . So, if you are looking a keris jargon in Indonesian Dictionary, it will be very likely taht you find none, or misleaded, such if you find 'ukiran' you may find 'carving' other than 'handle' as the translation. It doesn't mean that Javanese dictionary will 100% help you either. It may help you, but not 100%. Not even the thick Zoetmulder dictionary. I heard SNKI will compose a Dictionary on Keris Terminology, but I think it may face it's own challenge: disagreement amongs keris expert regarding some specific terminology. But it is worth to try Yes, Indonesia language use prefix and suffix extensively, and the original word might changed a little bit. If you cannot find the base word, you may try an online dictionary which allow you to put whole word. Perhaps this may help : http://www.kamus.net/ Software on learning Indonesian : (Free, they said, but unfortunately I haven't tried it) : http://www.byki.com/download_FLS.pl?cod=4x8BU1 Most of all, you have this forum, certainly for free  Cheers, Boedhi Adhitya |
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10th December 2007, 09:27 AM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 139
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keris related terminology
Dear Ganjawulung,
Thank you. Your kind explanations show quite clearly that what I had assumed as feasible for an old brain like mine, may be a bit far fetched. My objective is not to understand a complete Indonesian books about keris but only to understand captions under illustrations (as in Keris Jawa antara mystic dan nalar) or words in a discussion on the forum. I will see what I can do with the two very interesting on line support that Boedhi Adhitya, has kindly supplied. Thank you very much Boedhi Adhitya. You suggest Boedhi that I could ask on the forum the meaning of some words. I have thought about it previously but it is not really feasible. To give you an example, I was trying to understand the exact meaning of the different phases in the sculpturing of a keris as explained on pages 110,111 and 112 of Keris Jawa. Even if the illustrations are excellent, the exact meaning of each caption would be enlighting. With an average of 15 words per page, I found none of the words in my dictionary. I do not think I can come with 45 words, each one specifically related to one picture in one specific book in the forum and ask for its translation. It would be boring for too many forumnites and the translators ! Considering what you have said about the keris terminology I may not succeed even with the on line dictionary but it is worth trying. Thanks again to both of you Regards Michel |
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11th December 2007, 01:23 AM
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#3 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 991
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Quote:
The instructional of keris making in Haryono's book (page 110, 111, and 112), is really technical. Litterally, the "javanese" words -- yes, those are all javanese words -- may means different from the words. Like "nyawati" in the first picture (number 15). Literally means like "throwing stones to somewhere". Or "diwangun" (there are diwangun 1, diwangun 2, and diwangun 3) literally means forming the blade in order not to be "clumsy" (?) -- you may help me, Mas Boedhi. On "ngilap" and "ngleseh" these were really "plastical" javanese words, that needs to see the demonstration... I think Alan could explain to you better on these really technical instructions of keris making -- the second stage of keris blade forming... Ganjawulung |
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11th December 2007, 07:15 AM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 103
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Quote:
wish may help, boedhi adhitya |
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11th December 2007, 10:17 AM
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#5 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 139
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"diwangun", "ngilap" of "ngleseh"
Thank you Gentlemen,
You both helped. To let you understand why is it important for me to understand some words of "Javanese" (and not Indonesian, as I had assumed), I am in the process of giving shape to a keris patrem. During my first steps (forging) I made few errors that were corrected by Alan, lemmythesmith, Ric, all forumnites. Before and during the long process of stock removal, I wanted to avoid new errors and the good images of Keris Jawa, are an excellent guide that can be improved by the understanding of the words :diwangun", "ngilap" of "ngleseh". as grinding , filing , shaping. It is a confirmation that my understanding was correct. But fig. 30 and 31 : Natah tikel alis and Natah sraweyan, would be even more useful ! Alan was also kind enough to supply a complete glossary of terms related to keris, which quite obviously do not cover very specific Javanese keris manufacturing terms. Thank you to all, your help is appreciated. Regards Michel |
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11th December 2007, 09:15 PM
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#6 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 7,015
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One of the big defects with my language skills is that I do not really know when I am speaking Javanese or when I am speaking Indonesian, I've never learnt either language formally, only picked them up from talking to people, mostly in Solo. If I read the instructions on pages 111, 112, it seems to me that I am reading a mixture of what many people in Solo will claim is Indonesian, plus some Javanese. These are not literate people, true, but this is what they will speak to me if I say--- sorry, I'm not following, could you use Indonesian please--- then I get these words mixed with other definitely Indonesian words. If you tell me its all Javanese, Pak Ganja, then its all Javanese, but its what a lot of people have used to me when I've asked for Indonesian.
The diagrams and captions given on these pages are only a very broad overview of a work flow. I wouldn't call any of it technical, its just like a schematic of the progress of making a keris, it certainly does not in any way tell you how to actually make a keris.Its just stuff like "put in the jalen", "bend the kembang kacang","soften", "chisel out the sogokan", "smooth the chisel work"--- and so on.And not everybody would necessarily agree with the order given. Not at all technical instructions, just a broad over-view of workflow. As to my explaining these instructions, well, they're not really instructions.The workflow shown is more or less :- plan the work, design the work, roughly shape the work, cut the kembang kacang, put in the jalen, bend the KK, refine the form, cut the sogokan etc, smooth the chisel work, refine the work. As I said, its just a broad overview and doesn't really tell you anything at all about how to make a keris (particularly when it says "nglempeng ada-ada"---how the hell does one "nglempeng" an ada-ada in a waved keris? got me beat).However, for (a collector--deleted) those who do not know the process it will give some rough idea of the way in which the work proceeds. Some of the really vital things that you need to do are not even hinted at. Incidentally Michel, the glossary I pointed you to is far from complete, its just something that has built up haphazardly over the years to answer questions.We could probably triple that glossary, and it would still be deficient. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 12th December 2007 at 04:17 AM. |
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12th December 2007, 12:15 AM
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#7 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 991
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Quote:
Sometimes, I join to watch (watcher, then) my friend Yantono in Solo, making kerises in his "besalen" in Palur. Or making knife with pamor, commissioned by someone. Or sometimes "join" my old friend, Hajar Satoto (young artist in Solo) making "strange dhapur" kerises in Bekonang...Ganjawulung |
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12th December 2007, 04:49 AM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 103
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Quote:
What you really need is, IMHO, a stong 'mental image' on how the keris shape suppose to be. Then, try to realize it. It is very important. Take particular attention to proportion of length, width, thickness and angle (the condong-leleh), in whole, in every details (ricikan), and on proportion of each detail compared each other (for example, between the sekar kacang and jalen, and sekar kacang, jalen, and gandhik, and so on). Make a picture, or model as a guide. Ki Yosopangarso described it as Wujud =a finely defined details/ricikans, and Wangun ='proper harmony', 'balance' of each ricikan and the blade as a whole, including the pamor appearance. It also describe the word 'diwangun' = to make it 'wangun', to 'harmonize'. Wangun is deeply connected to your feeling/rasa. 'Wangun' or 'not wangun' is judged by your feeling. You must have a feeling for wangun in every step of keris making. So, wheter you are forging, grinding, filing or chiseling the blank, and even etching, you must make 'wangun' as your main consideration. Ngilap and ngleseh is part of cold/benchworking process (not so 'cold', I think ). So I assume you've made a keris blank. After you make a keris blank, the next step is 'silak/nyilak waja ' : to reveal the core/steel. Etching the edge will help. Examine the position and thickness of the core (wheter it is properly centered or not and the thickness is even and thick/thin enough). If problem encountered (very likely), you solve it by 'ngilap'= fine forging. Then you do the nyilak waja again or 'nyawati' to see wheter the problems has been solved or not. The difference between 'nyilak waja' and 'nyawati' is : on 'nyilak waja' you simply make a blunt, perpendicular edge, while in 'nyawati' you make a very acute edge/bevel. Nyawati is the refinement of nyilak waja. It also make a rough edge. Repeat the process : Nyilak waja/nyawati - ngilap - nyilak waja, until all core centered and has even thickness. Some other works may be done in between, including 'diwangun'. After all core centered, the next step is 'ngleseh'. Ngleseh is simply to reveal the pamor by filing/grinding the blank. While nyilak waja/nyawati and ngilap concentrated on the edge, 'Ngleseh' start the process of shaping the whole blade. You may do some ngilap too, if needed. As Pak Alan said, not every body agree to the order given. You may customize your own process, as needed. But the principle may be the same : working the edge/core, the blade, then the details/ricikan. When and where each process would overlap each other, depends 100% on you. It is worth to note that not everybody, even today's keris maker, would recognize all the name of the process. Nglanji or pidakan are quite common, but ngilap, I think, is not.They just simply don't bother . It is useful if an empu try to communicate some of the process to his assistant, such as "please do some ngilap again here and here.." and so on, but not every keris maker has assistant today.Other book describing the keris making process is The World of Javanese Keris by Garret and Bronwen Solyom, among other. I made some hasty illustration that I wish may help. Good luck ! Last edited by Boedhi Adhitya; 12th December 2007 at 05:02 AM. |
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12th December 2007, 09:32 AM
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#9 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 139
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Thank you
Thank You Mas Boedhi,
You really did a nice job and translated many words. These instructions will join those of Alan in my references and I think I will complete, for my own purpose, the glossary of Alan, with all these new words and concepts that you have translated. Your work is very much appreciated. Kind regards Michel |
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15th December 2007, 01:36 AM
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#10 | |
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Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: J a k a r t a
Posts: 991
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Quote:
I appreciate very much your valuable dialog on this keris making topic. Even in Indonesian keris forum, or Indonesian keris dialog, I think it never happened talking of keris making -- between "Jogja-school" and "Solo-school" (sorry, if it is not a proper term for you) -- in a friendly manner such this. Once again, I appreciate very much of you both, Mas Boedhi and Pak Alan. You are both the best waroenger in this Warung Kopi, if I may praise you... This dialog will not only be valuable for us all, waroengers, but also for the development of Indonesian keris, I think... Thank you Gentlemen, Ganjawulung |
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Hybrid Mode
