Were the chakram's only used by the Sikhs?

Jens Nordlunde · 6th December 2007, 09:54 PM

I feel sure that no one wanted to offend you or anyone else, so if you are offended, please accept my appology.
Do you have any comments to the use of the quoit/chakra, either when it comes to where it was used or any other comments.
Jens

katana · 7th December 2007, 09:37 PM

I have found this article on the Chakra, very informative, but the images are missing

. Definately worth a look.

http://www.whoosh.org/issue8/rudnick6.html

Regards David

Sikh_soldier · 12th December 2007, 04:34 PM

Hi Jens,

Please do not apologise
I am sure no one has tried to offend anyone, its just that referring to a Sikh Guru (Prophet/Messiah) as a cow protector may be seen as some as provocative by some.
I myself am not offended easily, but a great was exerted to try and associate or merge Sikhism and Hinduism by a fellow member, which was not quite relevant to the least.

Regarding the Chakar at it is also called, It must have been useful as the Sikhs were not ritualistic with weapons, they would simply choose what was most efficient at the time. As can be seen from their armouries, Kukri's, Khanda's and Katars all which come from all over India.

either way.......it looks pretty cool!

Jens Nordlunde · 12th December 2007, 07:24 PM

Sikh soldier,

I think that many of us know too little about the other member’s religions, so, without meaning anything offending, they now and again happen to offend people of other believes, I doubt, and hope, that this is not meant to be so.

The Charka is a Sikh ‘phenomena’, but it seems that it was widely used over a big part of India from the very early times, can you explain how widely it was used, and why it 'suddenly' was not used in the other parts od India any more?

Jens

Jeff D · 12th December 2007, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sikh_soldier

It must have been useful as the Sikhs were not ritualistic with weapons, they would simply choose what was most efficient at the time.

Hi Sikh soldier;

Does this Include the kirpan? Clearly not the case today.

Jeff

spiral · 14th December 2007, 07:21 PM

Hi I think Jeff you may find that while there have been & are faishionable & identifiable styles refererd to as Kirpan essentialy it is any sword or knife a Sikh wishes it to, that is carried to protect ones religion, ones family & the weak & vunerable.

Many years ago I worked with a lot of Sikhs, a couple carried old Pesh & Khanjar, some carried cheap indian tourist knives & some carried lockblades.

They were all called Kirpan.

But I am sure Sikhsoldier & others can provide much more precise info.

Spiral

Sikh_soldier · 16th December 2007, 04:16 PM

Hi guys sorry for the late reply,

Thank you spiral for your comments you are spot on,

Hi Jens, my knowledge on arms and armour is not great, I do know a bit about the sikhs

I know that they adopted many weapons and combat techniques from what was around them, I do not know about other groups in india using the chakar, i.e since when and why they have stopped, but I do know the chakram/chakar does originate with the sikhs.
The introduction of other projectile weapons such as guns may be a reason for it not being as popular, but sikhs will evolve with the times i.e incorporate matchlockss etc while still using and training in the use of chakars and the bow an arrow.

Hi Jeff, the sikhs were the peoples army, and by belief are not allowed to witness any type of injustice take place, and assist those in need, (incl non-militarily)

“If all possible means to restore peace have been exhausted, against oppression or tyranny, where it would be a greater offence not to take action, it is righteous to raise the sword.” 10th guru ji

Therefore, those Sikhs who have taken Amrit (baptised), are compelled to be armed.
therefore, the absolute minimum is to have a kirpan; loosely translated as a single edged blade. this can be anything from 3 inches to 3 feet. Traditionally, a Sikh would carry his kirpan, as well as many other arms. if you look at the pictures I posted above, the first picture (left) you can see that as well as being armed with chakrams, he also carries what appears to be a pistol under his left arm, a firangi and a chrillanum in his Kamarcussa (waistband). one of these may be his kirpan, or be supplementary to it.

However, due to necessity and law, baptised Sikhs only carry the bare minimum. As there are restrictions on size, there is a generic type which most wear.
spiral is right, more traditionally a Sikh could have made different types to choose from.
I have attached a picture of what is used by most, although I do know some who carry the olden types (pesh kabz is a firm favourite!)

Jeff D · 24th December 2007, 09:14 PM

Thanks Spiral and Sikh_soldier for the clarification.

My comments are only regarding the modern Kirpan which has only a ceremonial purpose. http://www.sikhs.org/art12.htm

Toshkhana is there any way to get a higher resolution photo of the hand near the center of the painting you posted.

All the Best
Jeff

roshan · 25th December 2007, 02:36 PM

Hi Sikh Soldier, just want to state that I respect the distinctiveness of the Sikh religion, and I do not have any agenda of merging it with Hinduism. However, I do believe that all religions are to some extent inspired by those that developed before them, I just thought that looking at some of the possible inspirations for Sikhism could help shed some light on why they came to use the Chakram.

Please note that Govind/Gobind is a Sanskrit name, and translated literally into English it is Go (Sanskrit for Cow) + Vind (Protector). In classic Hindu literature such as the Harivamsha and Mahabharata it is used as another name for Krishna. Here is a link confirming this:
http://www.indianchild.com/baby_name_indian_boy_g.htm

I am sorry if my theories have caused any offense, out of respect this will be my last post on the subject.

12th December 2007, 04:34 PM	#3
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	Chakram Hi Jens, Please do not apologise I am sure no one has tried to offend anyone, its just that referring to a Sikh Guru (Prophet/Messiah) as a cow protector may be seen as some as provocative by some. I myself am not offended easily, but a great was exerted to try and associate or merge Sikhism and Hinduism by a fellow member, which was not quite relevant to the least. Regarding the Chakar at it is also called, It must have been useful as the Sikhs were not ritualistic with weapons, they would simply choose what was most efficient at the time. As can be seen from their armouries, Kukri's, Khanda's and Katars all which come from all over India. either way.......it looks pretty cool!

14th December 2007, 07:21 PM	#6
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Hi I think Jeff you may find that while there have been & are faishionable & identifiable styles refererd to as Kirpan essentialy it is any sword or knife a Sikh wishes it to, that is carried to protect ones religion, ones family & the weak & vunerable. Many years ago I worked with a lot of Sikhs, a couple carried old Pesh & Khanjar, some carried cheap indian tourist knives & some carried lockblades. They were all called Kirpan. But I am sure Sikhsoldier & others can provide much more precise info. Spiral Last edited by spiral; 14th December 2007 at 07:51 PM.

16th December 2007, 04:16 PM	#7
Sikh_soldier Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 87	kirpan Hi guys sorry for the late reply, Thank you spiral for your comments you are spot on, Hi Jens, my knowledge on arms and armour is not great, I do know a bit about the sikhs I know that they adopted many weapons and combat techniques from what was around them, I do not know about other groups in india using the chakar, i.e since when and why they have stopped, but I do know the chakram/chakar does originate with the sikhs. The introduction of other projectile weapons such as guns may be a reason for it not being as popular, but sikhs will evolve with the times i.e incorporate matchlockss etc while still using and training in the use of chakars and the bow an arrow. Hi Jeff, the sikhs were the peoples army, and by belief are not allowed to witness any type of injustice take place, and assist those in need, (incl non-militarily) “If all possible means to restore peace have been exhausted, against oppression or tyranny, where it would be a greater offence not to take action, it is righteous to raise the sword.” 10th guru ji Therefore, those Sikhs who have taken Amrit (baptised), are compelled to be armed. therefore, the absolute minimum is to have a kirpan; loosely translated as a single edged blade. this can be anything from 3 inches to 3 feet. Traditionally, a Sikh would carry his kirpan, as well as many other arms. if you look at the pictures I posted above, the first picture (left) you can see that as well as being armed with chakrams, he also carries what appears to be a pistol under his left arm, a firangi and a chrillanum in his Kamarcussa (waistband). one of these may be his kirpan, or be supplementary to it. However, due to necessity and law, baptised Sikhs only carry the bare minimum. As there are restrictions on size, there is a generic type which most wear. spiral is right, more traditionally a Sikh could have made different types to choose from. I have attached a picture of what is used by most, although I do know some who carry the olden types (pesh kabz is a firm favourite!) Attached Images

24th December 2007, 09:14 PM	#8
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Thanks Spiral and Sikh_soldier for the clarification. My comments are only regarding the modern Kirpan which has only a ceremonial purpose. http://www.sikhs.org/art12.htm Toshkhana is there any way to get a higher resolution photo of the hand near the center of the painting you posted. All the Best Jeff Attached Images

6th December 2007, 09:54 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I feel sure that no one wanted to offend you or anyone else, so if you are offended, please accept my appology. Do you have any comments to the use of the quoit/chakra, either when it comes to where it was used or any other comments. Jens

7th December 2007, 09:37 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I have found this article on the Chakra, very informative, but the images are missing . Definately worth a look. http://www.whoosh.org/issue8/rudnick6.html Regards David

12th December 2007, 07:24 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Sikh soldier, I think that many of us know too little about the other member’s religions, so, without meaning anything offending, they now and again happen to offend people of other believes, I doubt, and hope, that this is not meant to be so. The Charka is a Sikh ‘phenomena’, but it seems that it was widely used over a big part of India from the very early times, can you explain how widely it was used, and why it 'suddenly' was not used in the other parts od India any more? Jens

25th December 2007, 02:36 PM	#9
roshan Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 20	Hi Sikh Soldier, just want to state that I respect the distinctiveness of the Sikh religion, and I do not have any agenda of merging it with Hinduism. However, I do believe that all religions are to some extent inspired by those that developed before them, I just thought that looking at some of the possible inspirations for Sikhism could help shed some light on why they came to use the Chakram. Please note that Govind/Gobind is a Sanskrit name, and translated literally into English it is Go (Sanskrit for Cow) + Vind (Protector). In classic Hindu literature such as the Harivamsha and Mahabharata it is used as another name for Krishna. Here is a link confirming this: http://www.indianchild.com/baby_name_indian_boy_g.htm I am sorry if my theories have caused any offense, out of respect this will be my last post on the subject.