I need some more informations over Khanda swords

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2007, 01:38 PM

The original graphic furnished circled what appeared to be a hole which was dead center in the blade, and resembled the unfortunate hole I described in the British sword I had. The hole in my sword was clearly not intended as any sort of decorative feature, nor did it have anything to do with the use of the sword, also it could not have been the result of anything accidental or natural.
The 'hole' now shown is among the linear group of impressions that are typically featured on the backpiece of these swords. These strengthening elements it seems often carried these dotlike impressions to vestigially represent the holes in many temple swords where auspicious or apotropaic decorations were applied. This is at least my impression. I am uncertain to what degree the temple swords were decorated but it seems that jingles were often the form of decoration to ward off malevolence during ceremonies and ritual.
I am uncertain why a singular hole would be present in this case.

The key importance of "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is that Robert Elgood explains in great depth how to understand the symbolism imbued in these weapons and the deep reverence with which they are held. Until his work was presented, virtually all references to Indian weapons dealt almost wholly with typology, and even then inconsistantly. I cannot recommend this book highly enough to anyone seriously interested in collecting and understanding these Indian arms.

katana · 5th December 2007, 05:48 PM

Hi Dralin 23,
first of all ...that is a lovely Khanda....congratulations

How are the 'decorative' edgings on your sword fixed to the blade?
I am wondering whether it is rivetted ....and the hole is where a rivet should have been...and is now lost.

Regards David

dralin23 · 5th December 2007, 08:01 PM

hi jim, hi katana
thanks for the congrats! yes it is an nice patisa ore maybe an khanda. the intresting is , it is not an flat blade , this blade got an small middle ridge!! it is unusual. all my khandablades are flat with cutting edges and these are stronger in the center. these hole ar not under the backplates it is in the area from the blade. see the picture again.
regards, stefan

spiral · 5th December 2007, 09:57 PM

I still wouldnt rule out a nail hole, a 2mm hole is big enoughh for a good massonary or carpentry nail.

Spiral

ALEX · 6th December 2007, 05:59 PM

There are only 3 choices - wall hanging, decoration or symbol signifying some kind of event, i.e. x-number of killed, etc. It'd be a difficult guess, since it can be ANY of those. I also have a Yataghan with hole in the center of the blade, and it is definitely not for hanging on the wall - because of the ears:-) and it is drilled in a special manner, so I preclude it was made for decoration purposes. I could not find an original owner's manual, so again - just a guess:-)

Jens Nordlunde · 6th December 2007, 06:13 PM

Hi Alex,
Nice to hear from you, and the hole in your blade is strange, as it would normally be fulled with gold/brass. I have never seen it like the hole on your blade before.
Jens

Jim McDougall · 7th December 2007, 04:06 AM

I think the folklore associated with edged weapons is intriguing, although typically the tales remain just that, extremely imaginative folklore. It is true however, that superstition, talismanic beliefs and myth were often deeply believed and observed by the individuals using the weapons.

As far as I know, many of the romanticized tales that claim certain modifications or applications on edged weapons such as gold or brass filled holes, or filed notches etc. were deliberately placed to represent the number of killed enemies etc. has never been proven.As I previously had mentioned, the myth of the notched grip on gunfighters revolvers is equally unproven, and the tale was largely the product of the embellishing writers of the period.

While bravery and the killing of the enemy in battle was of course often celebrated, and certainly there were certain elements of either dress or accoutrement that might be worn representing such deeds, but to keep tally on a weapon in numeric marking...mostly the product of misinterpretation or collectors imaginations. Naturally I would be fascinated to see supported examples of such markings on weapons.

As for decoration, I cannot see how a huge drilled hole that seems machine drilled in the center of the blade could have any decorative or symbolic value. It also seems that a hole drilled through the blade in this location would enormously compromise the integrity of the blade, at least this was what was suggested when considering blades with slotted holes to hold sliding bearings or pearls (tears of the wounded). While as Jens has noted, some blades did have hollowed out spots on them that were filled with gold or brass, some they were usually in some systemic arrangement or strategically placed, and huge like this completely through the blade.

That would leave the dreadful thought of this very attractive yataghan screwed to something in some sort of display, though I cannot imagine what someone could be thinking by doing that!

5th December 2007, 08:01 PM	#3
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 210	the hole hi jim, hi katana thanks for the congrats! yes it is an nice patisa ore maybe an khanda. the intresting is , it is not an flat blade , this blade got an small middle ridge!! it is unusual. all my khandablades are flat with cutting edges and these are stronger in the center. these hole ar not under the backplates it is in the area from the blade. see the picture again. regards, stefan Attached Images

6th December 2007, 05:59 PM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	There are only 3 choices - wall hanging, decoration or symbol signifying some kind of event, i.e. x-number of killed, etc. It'd be a difficult guess, since it can be ANY of those. I also have a Yataghan with hole in the center of the blade, and it is definitely not for hanging on the wall - because of the ears:-) and it is drilled in a special manner, so I preclude it was made for decoration purposes. I could not find an original owner's manual, so again - just a guess:-) Attached Images

5th December 2007, 01:38 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,616	The original graphic furnished circled what appeared to be a hole which was dead center in the blade, and resembled the unfortunate hole I described in the British sword I had. The hole in my sword was clearly not intended as any sort of decorative feature, nor did it have anything to do with the use of the sword, also it could not have been the result of anything accidental or natural. The 'hole' now shown is among the linear group of impressions that are typically featured on the backpiece of these swords. These strengthening elements it seems often carried these dotlike impressions to vestigially represent the holes in many temple swords where auspicious or apotropaic decorations were applied. This is at least my impression. I am uncertain to what degree the temple swords were decorated but it seems that jingles were often the form of decoration to ward off malevolence during ceremonies and ritual. I am uncertain why a singular hole would be present in this case. The key importance of "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is that Robert Elgood explains in great depth how to understand the symbolism imbued in these weapons and the deep reverence with which they are held. Until his work was presented, virtually all references to Indian weapons dealt almost wholly with typology, and even then inconsistantly. I cannot recommend this book highly enough to anyone seriously interested in collecting and understanding these Indian arms.

5th December 2007, 05:48 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Dralin 23, first of all ...that is a lovely Khanda....congratulations How are the 'decorative' edgings on your sword fixed to the blade? I am wondering whether it is rivetted ....and the hole is where a rivet should have been...and is now lost. Regards David

5th December 2007, 09:57 PM	#4
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I still wouldnt rule out a nail hole, a 2mm hole is big enoughh for a good massonary or carpentry nail. Spiral

6th December 2007, 06:13 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Alex, Nice to hear from you, and the hole in your blade is strange, as it would normally be fulled with gold/brass. I have never seen it like the hole on your blade before. Jens

7th December 2007, 04:06 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,616	I think the folklore associated with edged weapons is intriguing, although typically the tales remain just that, extremely imaginative folklore. It is true however, that superstition, talismanic beliefs and myth were often deeply believed and observed by the individuals using the weapons. As far as I know, many of the romanticized tales that claim certain modifications or applications on edged weapons such as gold or brass filled holes, or filed notches etc. were deliberately placed to represent the number of killed enemies etc. has never been proven.As I previously had mentioned, the myth of the notched grip on gunfighters revolvers is equally unproven, and the tale was largely the product of the embellishing writers of the period. While bravery and the killing of the enemy in battle was of course often celebrated, and certainly there were certain elements of either dress or accoutrement that might be worn representing such deeds, but to keep tally on a weapon in numeric marking...mostly the product of misinterpretation or collectors imaginations. Naturally I would be fascinated to see supported examples of such markings on weapons. As for decoration, I cannot see how a huge drilled hole that seems machine drilled in the center of the blade could have any decorative or symbolic value. It also seems that a hole drilled through the blade in this location would enormously compromise the integrity of the blade, at least this was what was suggested when considering blades with slotted holes to hold sliding bearings or pearls (tears of the wounded). While as Jens has noted, some blades did have hollowed out spots on them that were filled with gold or brass, some they were usually in some systemic arrangement or strategically placed, and huge like this completely through the blade. That would leave the dreadful thought of this very attractive yataghan screwed to something in some sort of display, though I cannot imagine what someone could be thinking by doing that!