I need some more informations over Khanda swords

fernando · 4th December 2007, 10:17 PM

Hi Jonathan

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

I dont know why yours is like that one but 20 to 30 years English country pubs were full of old swords nailed to the wall. They are all in collections knowadays.

The holes look better filled with gold or brass. But how or when they were doneoriginaly? I dont know.

Spiral

Are you talking about the same hole as Stefan ?

Fernando

spiral · 4th December 2007, 11:23 PM

Indeed Fernando, thats a prime place to help nail them up.

I have seen [in my misspent youth} probably a couple of hundred ethnographic swords on pub walls. Today they are all in prized collections.

But usualy the holes are plugged.

Or they are sold with a story saying a drilled hole in the blade means its killed a 100 men..

Reality is if you killed 80 or 120 men in battle do you realy know how many it was? personlay i doubt it.

But each to thier own.

Spiral

Jim McDougall · 4th December 2007, 11:36 PM

Hi Stefan,
Artzi is indeed very often the source for many of the outstanding weapons that are thankfully posted here for discussion, and yours is yet another!!!
The terminology on Indian weapons is a topic that will probably always be open for debate. It seems that the hilt form of your sword is of course regarded as that of the 'khanda'. While this has been established as an early form of sword in India, the term itself may be generally applied as simply a descriptive term for sword much as 'tulwar' or sa'if'.
When the khanda is mounted with a foreign blade it changes reference to being called a 'firangi' (loosely= foreign). The distinctly spatulated tip of the blade on yours brings the definition (according to Pant) to 'pattisa' from my understanding.

As with most weapons, there is a great deal of folklore associated with them as well as considerable religious and often talismanic applications, probably best described in Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Armour". This book is the product of many years of intense scholarly research that presents the most comprehensive perspective on these Indian weapons I have seen.

Regarding the hole in the center of the blade, I am inclined to agree with the likelihood that it may have more to do with mounting and displaying the weapon than the suggested folkloric meanings. I once had a beautiful British M1788 heavy cavalry basket hilt with a huge blade, and in the exact same location on the blade was a hole drilled exactly as shown, and could only have been meant to hold a nail. Despite the intriguing suggestion, I have not really encountered any means of tallying 'kills' on sword blades any more than gunfighters really notched thier guns in the "wild west"!

All best regards,
Jim

spiral · 5th December 2007, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Regarding the hole in the center of the blade, I am inclined to agree with the likelihood that it may have more to do with mounting and displaying the weapon than the suggested folkloric meanings. I once had a beautiful British M1788 heavy cavalry basket hilt with a huge blade, and in the exact same location on the blade was a hole drilled exactly as shown, and could only have been meant to hold a nail. Despite the intriguing suggestion, I have not really encountered any means of tallying 'kills' on sword blades any more than gunfighters really notched thier guns in the "wild west"!

All best regards,
Jim

Well Jim , I have only seen such a suggestion in " islamic weapons" from Mr. Tirri myself.

I dismissed it having seen so many nailed up examples myself , which i presume many American collecters were unaware off when buying in auction or from dealers?

I must admit I saw a few 1796 sabres & even a few naval swords treated in same mannor as well Jim. Expect most are filled one way or another knowadays though. probablyly with steel, tin or something rather whiter than gold or brass though.

I think Artzi has both bought & sold many weapons from Mr. Tirris collection? as my eyes tell me?

Its intresting to watch some weapons do the rounds of various collectors/dealers , while others just disapear from public veiw to become keepers.

As the kukri people say , each one ends up with the person its meant to be with.

Spiral

fernando · 5th December 2007, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

Well Jim , I have only seen such a suggestion in " islamic weapons" from Mr. Tirri myself.
... I think Artzi has both bought & sold many weapons from Mr. Tirris collection? as my eyes tell me?

I am learning that Mr. Tirry is a knotty boy

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

having seen so many nailed up examples myselfSpiral

Criminals

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

As the kukri people say , each one ends up with the person its meant to be with.

Spiral

My people say: Each one has that which he deserves

Fernando

ward · 5th December 2007, 01:30 AM

Tirri's opinions should be taken only as such. He is a wealthy collector who financed a private publishing. enough said

dralin23 · 5th December 2007, 09:02 AM

hi spiral
thanks all for your posted opinions!!
the hole is at an other place in the blade. it is only a very small hole ca. 2mm , such an hole is to small for an nail. i know also such wall nailed swords but i hope the history from these sword is not these. ( it smell not like guiness ore kilkeny

)
can someone help me because the hiltbinding???
stefan

Jim McDougall · 5th December 2007, 01:38 PM

The original graphic furnished circled what appeared to be a hole which was dead center in the blade, and resembled the unfortunate hole I described in the British sword I had. The hole in my sword was clearly not intended as any sort of decorative feature, nor did it have anything to do with the use of the sword, also it could not have been the result of anything accidental or natural.
The 'hole' now shown is among the linear group of impressions that are typically featured on the backpiece of these swords. These strengthening elements it seems often carried these dotlike impressions to vestigially represent the holes in many temple swords where auspicious or apotropaic decorations were applied. This is at least my impression. I am uncertain to what degree the temple swords were decorated but it seems that jingles were often the form of decoration to ward off malevolence during ceremonies and ritual.
I am uncertain why a singular hole would be present in this case.

The key importance of "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is that Robert Elgood explains in great depth how to understand the symbolism imbued in these weapons and the deep reverence with which they are held. Until his work was presented, virtually all references to Indian weapons dealt almost wholly with typology, and even then inconsistantly. I cannot recommend this book highly enough to anyone seriously interested in collecting and understanding these Indian arms.

5th December 2007, 09:02 AM	#7
dralin23 Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 210	the hole in these khanda hi spiral thanks all for your posted opinions!! the hole is at an other place in the blade. it is only a very small hole ca. 2mm , such an hole is to small for an nail. i know also such wall nailed swords but i hope the history from these sword is not these. ( it smell not like guiness ore kilkeny ) can someone help me because the hiltbinding??? stefan Attached Images

4th December 2007, 11:23 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Indeed Fernando, thats a prime place to help nail them up. I have seen [in my misspent youth} probably a couple of hundred ethnographic swords on pub walls. Today they are all in prized collections. But usualy the holes are plugged. Or they are sold with a story saying a drilled hole in the blade means its killed a 100 men.. Reality is if you killed 80 or 120 men in battle do you realy know how many it was? personlay i doubt it. But each to thier own. Spiral

4th December 2007, 11:36 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	Hi Stefan, Artzi is indeed very often the source for many of the outstanding weapons that are thankfully posted here for discussion, and yours is yet another!!! The terminology on Indian weapons is a topic that will probably always be open for debate. It seems that the hilt form of your sword is of course regarded as that of the 'khanda'. While this has been established as an early form of sword in India, the term itself may be generally applied as simply a descriptive term for sword much as 'tulwar' or sa'if'. When the khanda is mounted with a foreign blade it changes reference to being called a 'firangi' (loosely= foreign). The distinctly spatulated tip of the blade on yours brings the definition (according to Pant) to 'pattisa' from my understanding. As with most weapons, there is a great deal of folklore associated with them as well as considerable religious and often talismanic applications, probably best described in Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Armour". This book is the product of many years of intense scholarly research that presents the most comprehensive perspective on these Indian weapons I have seen. Regarding the hole in the center of the blade, I am inclined to agree with the likelihood that it may have more to do with mounting and displaying the weapon than the suggested folkloric meanings. I once had a beautiful British M1788 heavy cavalry basket hilt with a huge blade, and in the exact same location on the blade was a hole drilled exactly as shown, and could only have been meant to hold a nail. Despite the intriguing suggestion, I have not really encountered any means of tallying 'kills' on sword blades any more than gunfighters really notched thier guns in the "wild west"! All best regards, Jim

5th December 2007, 01:30 AM	#6
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Tirri's opinions should be taken only as such. He is a wealthy collector who financed a private publishing. enough said

5th December 2007, 01:38 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,458	The original graphic furnished circled what appeared to be a hole which was dead center in the blade, and resembled the unfortunate hole I described in the British sword I had. The hole in my sword was clearly not intended as any sort of decorative feature, nor did it have anything to do with the use of the sword, also it could not have been the result of anything accidental or natural. The 'hole' now shown is among the linear group of impressions that are typically featured on the backpiece of these swords. These strengthening elements it seems often carried these dotlike impressions to vestigially represent the holes in many temple swords where auspicious or apotropaic decorations were applied. This is at least my impression. I am uncertain to what degree the temple swords were decorated but it seems that jingles were often the form of decoration to ward off malevolence during ceremonies and ritual. I am uncertain why a singular hole would be present in this case. The key importance of "Hindu Arms and Ritual" is that Robert Elgood explains in great depth how to understand the symbolism imbued in these weapons and the deep reverence with which they are held. Until his work was presented, virtually all references to Indian weapons dealt almost wholly with typology, and even then inconsistantly. I cannot recommend this book highly enough to anyone seriously interested in collecting and understanding these Indian arms.