Interesting Tribal Shaska with wootz blade

RSWORD · 8th December 2004, 02:37 AM

It is definately difficult to try and classify wootz as there are a lot of opinions on how to classify. If you look at Manfred Sachse book "Damascus Steel" he breaks wootz down into 5 categories:
1) Stripy damask or Sham
2) Water damask
3) Wavy damask
4) chequered mottle (network) damask
5) Ladder (vertebrae) damask

If you look at the examples of wootz posted on this(p. 72 in the book), my example is much closer to Water damask than Sham based on Sachse classification.

Ann Feuerbach · 24th January 2006, 04:26 PM

Hi all,
From a technological point of view Sham is a type of wootz/pulad as it is crucible steel, however it is made of hypoeutectoid steel (less than 0.8% Carbon), whereas Verhoevens "true" spheroid crucible steel patterns needs to have above 0.8% carbon (hypereutecotid) for that type of microstructure to occur. For those who are interested, arguabley...The Sham pattern is caused by ferrite/pearlite banding whereas the other types (kara Khorasan for example) the pattern is made from the alignment of the cementite (the stripes) in a pearlitic/ferritic matric (background). So from a ancient technology point of view Sham is a type of wootz/pulad as it is made of crucible steel. In ancient times (and even today when doing backyard production) it would be dificult to control the carbon content to such a small degree (0.05% difference would change the microstructure) so, in theory, the same craftsmen could make Shan and Kara Khorasan blades from the same crucible firing, just one handful of plant matter contained more carbon than the other.

Rivkin · 26th January 2006, 04:36 AM

Attached is a Shamil's period decoration "for bravery". 6-point star (as symbol of vainakhs, for example as seen on ingush carpets) with something in arabic.

I've never heard Shamil awarding shashkas as a recognition, even through gifts of weapons were kind well accepted as a tradition.

ALEX · 26th January 2006, 10:30 AM

Rick,

Regarding your Tribal shashka - it has Assad Allah stamp (my friend can read Arabic) - a sign of Persian blade - the pattern and form on yours closely resemble the blade I just received, and will post shortly. Mine is also thin and light. Please notice the striking similarity in patter AND the bare handle, the way it connects to the blade - I think it could have been re-handled into shaska from shamshir (just my quess though).

And I second your opinion Rick - it's NOT sham pattern. I'd say it's Water or Network wootz.

Rivkin · 26th January 2006, 01:43 PM

I could just read "Allah". Following Astvatsaturjan's analysis in "Turkish weapons", it is hard to point age or even origin of "A-A" blades. It is quite similar to "Andrea Ferrara" situation - the signature that became so popular that no one really knows which ones are original and which ones are not.

ham · 27th January 2006, 05:47 PM

RSword has himself a fine and unusual example of a shashka with wootz blade-- it may be a refitted Persian one but it would be necessary to consider its thickness and section before establishing this. The curvature is so shallow, however, that it most likely was commissioned by the owner to be hilted as it now appears, probably in Tbilisi. This was an important center of arms production, where Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and too many ethnicities to list, worked and traded. Wootz was certainly forged there, and possibly elsewhere in the Caucasus as well. Tbilisi smiths were to a considerable extent influenced by then-pervasive Ottoman forms-- the "comma-" shaped inlay on the pommel evokes the small reinforcing plates found on the pommels of Ottoman swords where the lanyard passes through, and the inscription on this blade is in Ottoman, rather than Persian, style as well. Incidentally, it isn't a signature, it is a prayer, MASHA ALLAH! or GOD BLESS!

Nice sword and a rare one.

Ham

26th January 2006, 04:36 AM	#3
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Attached is a Shamil's period decoration "for bravery". 6-point star (as symbol of vainakhs, for example as seen on ingush carpets) with something in arabic. I've never heard Shamil awarding shashkas as a recognition, even through gifts of weapons were kind well accepted as a tradition. Attached Images

26th January 2006, 10:30 AM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Stamp and Pattern Rick, Regarding your Tribal shashka - it has Assad Allah stamp (my friend can read Arabic) - a sign of Persian blade - the pattern and form on yours closely resemble the blade I just received, and will post shortly. Mine is also thin and light. Please notice the striking similarity in patter AND the bare handle, the way it connects to the blade - I think it could have been re-handled into shaska from shamshir (just my quess though). And I second your opinion Rick - it's NOT sham pattern. I'd say it's Water or Network wootz.

27th January 2006, 05:47 PM	#6
ham Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 190	RSword has himself a fine and unusual example of a shashka with wootz blade-- it may be a refitted Persian one but it would be necessary to consider its thickness and section before establishing this. The curvature is so shallow, however, that it most likely was commissioned by the owner to be hilted as it now appears, probably in Tbilisi. This was an important center of arms production, where Christians, Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and too many ethnicities to list, worked and traded. Wootz was certainly forged there, and possibly elsewhere in the Caucasus as well. Tbilisi smiths were to a considerable extent influenced by then-pervasive Ottoman forms-- the "comma-" shaped inlay on the pommel evokes the small reinforcing plates found on the pommels of Ottoman swords where the lanyard passes through, and the inscription on this blade is in Ottoman, rather than Persian, style as well. Incidentally, it isn't a signature, it is a prayer, MASHA ALLAH! or GOD BLESS! Nice sword and a rare one. Ham Last edited by ham; 27th January 2006 at 06:10 PM.

8th December 2004, 02:37 AM	#1
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	It is definately difficult to try and classify wootz as there are a lot of opinions on how to classify. If you look at Manfred Sachse book "Damascus Steel" he breaks wootz down into 5 categories: 1) Stripy damask or Sham 2) Water damask 3) Wavy damask 4) chequered mottle (network) damask 5) Ladder (vertebrae) damask If you look at the examples of wootz posted on this(p. 72 in the book), my example is much closer to Water damask than Sham based on Sachse classification.

24th January 2006, 04:26 PM	#2
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Hi all, From a technological point of view Sham is a type of wootz/pulad as it is crucible steel, however it is made of hypoeutectoid steel (less than 0.8% Carbon), whereas Verhoevens "true" spheroid crucible steel patterns needs to have above 0.8% carbon (hypereutecotid) for that type of microstructure to occur. For those who are interested, arguabley...The Sham pattern is caused by ferrite/pearlite banding whereas the other types (kara Khorasan for example) the pattern is made from the alignment of the cementite (the stripes) in a pearlitic/ferritic matric (background). So from a ancient technology point of view Sham is a type of wootz/pulad as it is made of crucible steel. In ancient times (and even today when doing backyard production) it would be dificult to control the carbon content to such a small degree (0.05% difference would change the microstructure) so, in theory, the same craftsmen could make Shan and Kara Khorasan blades from the same crucible firing, just one handful of plant matter contained more carbon than the other.

26th January 2006, 01:43 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I could just read "Allah". Following Astvatsaturjan's analysis in "Turkish weapons", it is hard to point age or even origin of "A-A" blades. It is quite similar to "Andrea Ferrara" situation - the signature that became so popular that no one really knows which ones are original and which ones are not.