Figural Dagger - Esmeralda?

[Tim Simmons]

Remarkably similar to Hindu black and white, Shiva/Kali concepts. I do have to question what Victor Hugo has to do with modern Wicca. I have read that it stems for rather too rich and discontented late Victorian thrill seekers. I can not remember all the story but Esmeralda was the good person refusing the cardinals advances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:A...and_Boline.JPG
The story
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esmeralda_(The_Hunchback_of_Notre_Dame)

I must find and the painting "Scape goat" to add to this goat symbolism.

http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/o.../scapegoat.asp

Esmeralda like the scape goat is a vehicle for the sins of rather naughty men, especially those hidden behind cloth.

[Jim McDougall]

I recall this intriguing dagger from the last thread, and its as if this, the sequel gets better and better! I have always been fascinated by art, and the study of the many hidden meanings often discovered long after the esoteric purposes of the artists had been lost. While of course, the intended perspectives can only be speculated, it seems that as more evidence is discovered and plausibilty presented, the possibilities become compelling.

This is exactly the type of investigation and thinking we have been hoping to expand with the thread on early makers markings. That is to discover not only any consistancies in the markings and inscriptions used on the trade blades that often found thier way into the hilts of many cultures, but the intricate meanings and symbolism found in them.

As this dagger clearly shows, there was indeed pronounced symbolism that involved deeply religious sentiments and often conflicts involving the church. In the case of the symbolism on markings and inscriptions on blades, the emphasis intended is of course typically apotropaic and reflecting faith and strength, and the depth of the meanings imbued in these are often very deep if not even much more so than displayed in this dagger. Just as in the theme of the dagger, often the motif used on blades carried considerable allegory, as clearly seen in the talismanic blades of l7th through 19th century.

I apologize for the deviation in bringing up the other thread, but could not resist mentioning it in hopes that some of you might bring the clearly advanced investigative skills you have shown in this topic to the theme of the thread on blade markings

With that, I completely agree that this is a fascinating dagger, and though it would be difficult to consider as satanic, I think it is interesting to consider the allegory that seems present. I recall thinking in the original thread that the scabbard must have been intended to view with point upward, but as David has astutely observed, the tiles position disagrees. This brings us back to the objective of the 'upside down church'.

It seems that it is often suggested that the upside down cross is supposed to represent satanic symbolism, and that might be in some cases, but in actuality the inverted cross represents St.Peter. It seems that he felt himself unworthy of crucifixion in the same manner as Christ, so insisted on being upside down, as told in symbolic lore.

Obviously there is always more than one side to any story, and so it goes with investigating symbolism in art, weapons, material culture, literature!
But you guys have been doing fantastic at analysis of this dagger, and hope you keep it going! Its really like a great book ! I think Hugo would be impressed!! Thanks very much everybody.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Tim Simmons]

If we sentance Esmeralder to death we are cleaned of our sins. How many times have you nearly crashed the car because you given in to SIN?

[kronckew]

wasn't esmerelda broken on the wheel and hung, her head would then be in such a position i'd guess?

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Remarkably similar to Hindu black and white, Shiva/Kali concepts. I do have to question what Victor Hugo has to do with modern Wicca. I have read that it stems for rather too rich and discontented late Victorian thrill seekers. I can not remember all the story but Esmeralda was the good person refusing the cardinals advances.

I did not intend to draw references between Hugo and Wicca, I was only referring to the probability that the goat was a fertility symbol and that this symbol has little to do with satanism and is more a pagan concept.

I need to re-read the book, but the little I remember is that Hugo was trying to say that Esmeralda, though a pagan was essentially a better person than the Christian clergy. I may have this mixed up.

This is a very well-made dagger, sheath and hilt. The likelihood was that the maker was really trying to say something. I think that Katana really pointed us in the right direction with his ideas on Esmeralda and probably the Hunchback, but Esmeralda may be older than this. Curious as to where her original symbolism came from.

[katana]

Hi Bill,
done a little more research, and think I may have some answers.

Esmeralda, was kidnapped from her home whilst a young girl. Her original name (in Hugo's book) is Agnes and was changed by the Gypsies to Esmeralda, (a Spanish name for emerald). In fact the purse (green silk) around her neck contains a green piece of glass to remind her of her name (emerald-Esmeralda). Now it gets a bit more interesting, Agnes, her given name, is the name of a virgin martyr Saint. She is the patron saint of chastity, gardeners, girls, engaged couples, rape victims and virgins.

"......According to her legend, Saint Agnes was a member of the Roman nobility born c. 291 and raised in a Christian family. She suffered martyrdom at the age of thirteen during the reign of the Eastern Roman Emperor Diocletian, on January 21, 304.

The prefect Sempronius wished Agnes to marry his son, and on Agnes' refusal he condemned her to death. Roman law did not permit the execution of virgins, Sempronius had a naked Agnes dragged through the streets to a brothel. As she prayed, her hair grew and covered her body. It was also said that all of the men who attempted to rape her were immediately struck blind. When led out to die she was tied to a stake, but the bundle of wood would not burn, whereupon the officer in charge of the troops drew his sword and struck off her head, or, in some other texts, stabbed her in the throat.

A few days after Agnes' death, a girl named Emerentiana was found praying by her tomb; she claimed to be the daughter of Agnes' wet nurse, and was stoned to death after refusing to leave the place and reprimanding the pagans for killing her foster sister. Emerentiana was also later canonized...."

Agnes is represented in art as a blonde young girl in robes, holding a palm branch in her hand and a lamb ( Esmeralda a goat) at her feet or in her arms.



It would seem that Esmeralda Character is based on St Agnes.

Interestingly both Agnes and Esmeralda died by trauma to the neck ...... I think that is why the neck position is so exaggerated.

Kind Regards
David

[David]

I think the neck position was merely the artist's attempt to depict the character (Esmeralda) looking lovingly at the goat. This is a nice dagger, but Michelangelo this artist ain't.
We could spend a great deal of time discussing Hugo's work Notre-Dame de Paris and exactly what his intention were in his development of the character of Esmeralda, but this is not a literary forum and i would be willing to bet that the artist who created this knife did it as a direct rendition of the character from the book, not Hugo's deeper modivations or influences such as the story of St. Agnes (as interesting as that story might be).
Bottom line Bill is that IMHO, sometimes a goat is just a goat and a strange neck bend just that as well. Even though you are dismissing the early, rather rediculous idea that this was some kind of "satanic" dagger you still seem to be looking for the occult in this blade. I don't think you will every find it in any convincing manner. Personally i think this blade is just what it appears to be, a nicely crafted commemorative depicting a scene from Victor Hugo's Hunchback novel, which was, indeed, about much more than a love affair between a beauty and a grotesque.
Hugo's original title Notre-Dame de Paris is so named because he felt that the cathedral itself was the main character of the book. The fact that it is upside-down on the sheath, if one chooses to orient it that way (maybe it's Esmeralda and the goat that are upside-down ) i believe is merely because the shape of a cathedral comes to a natural point like the dagger.
This link was probably posted in the original thread but here goes anyway:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hun..._of_Notre_Dame

[spiral]

David heres another dagger you might find interesting?



From this thread, many more photos...


linky




Intresting & revealing to see the emotians this peace still raises for some... & where they are with it.

Interesting discusian chaps!


Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

David heres another dagger you might find interesting?
Intresting & revealing to see the emotians this peace still raises for some... & where they are with it.
Interesting discusian chaps!

I do indeed find it interesting Spiral. Is a a "Satanic Dagger" once used in black rituals? Who knows? It is interesting though that another dagger with an identical hilt also turned up on the BladesForum thread so it seems this one had at least a limited run once. That might tell you something about it.
I wonder if Rodin's Gates of Hell are considered "Satanic Gates" by the same people who label these "Satanic Daggers"?
Spiral, i must say i am intrigued. Exactly what emotions do you think you see rising in these posts that are so revealing to you. Maybe you are looking at mirrors. I would love to learn your trick for reading between the lines.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

I do indeed find it interesting Spiral. Is a a "Satanic Dagger" once used in black rituals? Who knows? It is interesting though that another dagger with an identical hilt also turned up on the BladesForum thread so it seems this one had at least a limited run once. That might tell you something about it.
I wonder if Rodin's Gates of Hell are considered "Satanic Gates" by the same people who label these "Satanic Daggers"?
Spiral, i must say i am intrigued. Exactly what emotions do you think you see rising in these posts that are so revealing to you. Maybe you are looking at mirrors. I would love to learn your trick for reading between the lines.

I have no idea David about that dagger either, same as you.

When I originaly posted the esmerelda dagger my assumptions were based on a few examples I had seen in various threads. {Which the more examples one reads the more one spots errors generaly.} Luckily I still learn more about many things evry week & try not to hold on to unprooven knoweledge for to long.

I explained earlier in this thread where I am with this know.

Glad you found the linked knife interesting. Its looks "satanic" so I personaly would accept it bieng called that but so does much old art.

No mirrors or emotians in this one for me anymore David.

Just thought I could see some new bright angles mentioned & discused by some & some other comments that would have fitted better in the first thread, rather than this one

But its all eye of the beholder, I guess. Perheps I was mistaken. Only the writer of each post in this thread will know what this knife & its past threads hold for them.

Personaly I thought the neck of Esmerelda was made at that angle so it made her neck & shuolder a more comfterable place to lay ones thumb.

But that was just my reaction to it. Artistic licence, deeper meaning, all of the above? who knows? Intresting though.

Its a nice dagger I think.

Spiral