Abyssinian shotel for coment

roanoa · 29th November 2007, 03:25 PM

Hi, Rod. Just saw this picture (horribly small..... I hope it will show OK) and thought of you. The knife is identified (I hope the identification is correct) as being from the Sidamo province of Ethiopia. Cheers.

Rod Charters · 30th November 2007, 10:53 PM

Hi Roanna, thanks very much for this. Yes its an interesting style of knife and scabbard and given that the one I have is extremely heavy (34cm blade but approx. 1.5 cm thick in the centre) had some previous discussions on whether it had an agricultural purpose as well as fighting. My guess for cutting enset (ornamental banana commonnon to the area). Thanks Rod.

Emanuel · 7th December 2007, 02:59 PM

Hello,

I talked with an Ethiopian gentleman about Ethiopian swords and when I mentioned the shotel he didn't understand what I meant. He did not recognize the word nor did he understand my description of the sword. Could we have the word wrong? Or is it more likely that the shotel is not in living memory, or is uncommonly known to Ethiopians? I will show him a pic next time and see what he says.

Furthermore when I mentioned the "guradé" he corrected my pronunciation to "guragué". Any comments on this?

Regards,
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 8th December 2007, 12:06 AM

Hi Emanuel,
I'm really glad you brought this up, as over the years I have tried in vain to find any etymology to many of the terms used for certain ethnographic weapons. Some time ago I mentioned the term 'shotel' to individuals from various parts of Ethiopia... none had the slightest idea what the term meant, so it would appear not to be a word widely known in the languages there. I cannot claim these casually asked questions offer definitive proof that the term is unknown entirely, just interesting that it was not known by unrelated individuals from different regions.

Again, some time ago I discovered that the term 'kaskara' is entirely unknown not only in the Sudan, and by different tribal groups, but in Eritrea as well. I questioned individuals who were from Sudan, Darfur, and Beja tribesman from Eritrea. None knew the word kaskara, and none could offer either any suggestion where the word might have come from. The sword is known only as sa'if. Even a friend who was deeply involved in archaeology and study in Sudan did some checking with the University of Khartoum, and found no results with the word kaskara.

The term katar, for the well known Indian dagger with transverse grips, according to Dr. G.N.Pant is a misnomer. According to him, the term is actually jemadhar, and the misapplication was perpetuated by Egerton in his 1880 work on Indian arms. The katar applies to a traditional form dagger of Northern India. Due to the fact that the term katar has become so firmly embedded as referring to the well known transverse grip dagger in collectors parlance, it would be entirely counter production to try to resolve at this point.

It would seem that much of this curious terminology has come from transliterations, semantics and often outright misunderstanding by early narrators and arms writers. From these works, early collectors have unwittingly created a weapons terminology that often has little to do with the languages where the weapons have originated.

It gets more complicated! There is no such sword as a scimitar....this is simply a transliteration trying to describe shamshir. There are shamshirs in India? Yes..but they are termed talwars!!! The Ottoman kilij is a well known form, but what if the blade is different, what if it has a shamshir blade but kilij hilt? etc etc etc.

If you can come up with any information on 'shotel' it will be truly a revelation and I am more than anxious to hear more. It will truly be one small step for ethnographic weapons -kind, where I have only stumbled!!!

Please keep us posted Emanuel,

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 8th December 2007, 02:05 AM

Hi Jim

I'm starting to wonder whether the "guragué" is not related to the Gurage ethnic group. They make up only about 4 percent of the Ethiopian population, so I don't know how great a link can be drawn here.
What I'll do is show the man a number of shotel with different curvatures and ask him what he knows about them.
Then again, Ron likely knows far more than this man would, so perhaps he'll chime in with thoughts.

Spring refers in his "African Arms and Armour" (1993) to Nathaniel Pearce having given the name shotel, in "The Life and Adventures of Nathaniel pearce" (1831). It can actually be read here: http://books.google.com/books?id=58o...0p3_vinsuhwy2o

I love ethno study

!
Warmest regards and safe driving,
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 8th December 2007, 02:55 AM

I love 'ethno' research too!!!! mostly because of the company I'm in here, and no matter how much stuff I dig up on the topics....you guys find more, as you have shown here

I'm addicted to learning as much as I can, and here it never stops.

Good thinking on possibilities for 'gurade', and excellent call on the use of the shotel term in the 1831 book mentioned in Spring. This of course establishes a benchmark for known use of the term, and we can go from there. I look forward to hearing more on your findings on the term. I'm with you in hoping that Ron might add his observations on these terms as his unsurpassed study and knowledge on these weapons certainly has included this topic.

Thank you for the kind wishes, I'll keep it on the road!!!

All the best,
Jim

roanoa · 8th December 2007, 06:38 AM

You have opened the Pandora box.... Shotel. Well, for starters there is a village in Eritrea named Shotel. So the word exists, at least in the Tygrinian language spoken in Eritrea and Tigrai. It may not exist in Amharic and therefore it may not be known in Ethiopia. My mother-in-law (she was a full-blood Eritrean) told me that shotel meant "big knife". So she knew the word. I can see, though, that the term may have been used only in a few areas of Abyssinia and then lost along the way. Gurade is a different story. It may be pronounced GURADE, GORADE or GORADIE, but it is the correct word, both in Amharic and Tygrinian, for sword, though the term SE'F (from the Arabic SAIF) is widely used. I guess that Se'f really means "sword" and Gurade means "sabre". Gurage is an Ethnic group and the word has nothing to do with swords. I am not surprised by the fact that a lot of Ethiopians know absolutely nothing about these things. Nobody I ever talked to even understood a single word of Ge'ez. Again, my mother-in-law, who knew the whole Bible almost by heart, understood Ge'ez, and was able to translate a few inscriptions. The new generations don't even know who Ras Alula was.... Blame it to the DERG, I guess. Bottom line is that I will continue to used these terms as I am convinced they are historically and ethnically correct.

29th November 2007, 03:25 PM	#1
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 241	Hi, Rod. Just saw this picture (horribly small..... I hope it will show OK) and thought of you. The knife is identified (I hope the identification is correct) as being from the Sidamo province of Ethiopia. Cheers. Attached Images

8th December 2007, 02:05 AM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim I'm starting to wonder whether the "guragué" is not related to the Gurage ethnic group. They make up only about 4 percent of the Ethiopian population, so I don't know how great a link can be drawn here. What I'll do is show the man a number of shotel with different curvatures and ask him what he knows about them. Then again, Ron likely knows far more than this man would, so perhaps he'll chime in with thoughts. Spring refers in his "African Arms and Armour" (1993) to Nathaniel Pearce having given the name shotel, in "The Life and Adventures of Nathaniel pearce" (1831). It can actually be read here: http://books.google.com/books?id=58o...0p3_vinsuhwy2o I love ethno study ! Warmest regards and safe driving, Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 8th December 2007 at 02:23 AM.

30th November 2007, 10:53 PM	#2
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Hi Roanna, thanks very much for this. Yes its an interesting style of knife and scabbard and given that the one I have is extremely heavy (34cm blade but approx. 1.5 cm thick in the centre) had some previous discussions on whether it had an agricultural purpose as well as fighting. My guess for cutting enset (ornamental banana commonnon to the area). Thanks Rod.

7th December 2007, 02:59 PM	#3
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, I talked with an Ethiopian gentleman about Ethiopian swords and when I mentioned the shotel he didn't understand what I meant. He did not recognize the word nor did he understand my description of the sword. Could we have the word wrong? Or is it more likely that the shotel is not in living memory, or is uncommonly known to Ethiopians? I will show him a pic next time and see what he says. Furthermore when I mentioned the "guradé" he corrected my pronunciation to "guragué". Any comments on this? Regards, Emanuel

8th December 2007, 12:06 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	Hi Emanuel, I'm really glad you brought this up, as over the years I have tried in vain to find any etymology to many of the terms used for certain ethnographic weapons. Some time ago I mentioned the term 'shotel' to individuals from various parts of Ethiopia... none had the slightest idea what the term meant, so it would appear not to be a word widely known in the languages there. I cannot claim these casually asked questions offer definitive proof that the term is unknown entirely, just interesting that it was not known by unrelated individuals from different regions. Again, some time ago I discovered that the term 'kaskara' is entirely unknown not only in the Sudan, and by different tribal groups, but in Eritrea as well. I questioned individuals who were from Sudan, Darfur, and Beja tribesman from Eritrea. None knew the word kaskara, and none could offer either any suggestion where the word might have come from. The sword is known only as sa'if. Even a friend who was deeply involved in archaeology and study in Sudan did some checking with the University of Khartoum, and found no results with the word kaskara. The term katar, for the well known Indian dagger with transverse grips, according to Dr. G.N.Pant is a misnomer. According to him, the term is actually jemadhar, and the misapplication was perpetuated by Egerton in his 1880 work on Indian arms. The katar applies to a traditional form dagger of Northern India. Due to the fact that the term katar has become so firmly embedded as referring to the well known transverse grip dagger in collectors parlance, it would be entirely counter production to try to resolve at this point. It would seem that much of this curious terminology has come from transliterations, semantics and often outright misunderstanding by early narrators and arms writers. From these works, early collectors have unwittingly created a weapons terminology that often has little to do with the languages where the weapons have originated. It gets more complicated! There is no such sword as a scimitar....this is simply a transliteration trying to describe shamshir. There are shamshirs in India? Yes..but they are termed talwars!!! The Ottoman kilij is a well known form, but what if the blade is different, what if it has a shamshir blade but kilij hilt? etc etc etc. If you can come up with any information on 'shotel' it will be truly a revelation and I am more than anxious to hear more. It will truly be one small step for ethnographic weapons -kind, where I have only stumbled!!! Please keep us posted Emanuel, All the best, Jim

8th December 2007, 02:55 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,195	I love 'ethno' research too!!!! mostly because of the company I'm in here, and no matter how much stuff I dig up on the topics....you guys find more, as you have shown here I'm addicted to learning as much as I can, and here it never stops. Good thinking on possibilities for 'gurade', and excellent call on the use of the shotel term in the 1831 book mentioned in Spring. This of course establishes a benchmark for known use of the term, and we can go from there. I look forward to hearing more on your findings on the term. I'm with you in hoping that Ron might add his observations on these terms as his unsurpassed study and knowledge on these weapons certainly has included this topic. Thank you for the kind wishes, I'll keep it on the road!!! All the best, Jim

8th December 2007, 06:38 AM	#7
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 241	You have opened the Pandora box.... Shotel. Well, for starters there is a village in Eritrea named Shotel. So the word exists, at least in the Tygrinian language spoken in Eritrea and Tigrai. It may not exist in Amharic and therefore it may not be known in Ethiopia. My mother-in-law (she was a full-blood Eritrean) told me that shotel meant "big knife". So she knew the word. I can see, though, that the term may have been used only in a few areas of Abyssinia and then lost along the way. Gurade is a different story. It may be pronounced GURADE, GORADE or GORADIE, but it is the correct word, both in Amharic and Tygrinian, for sword, though the term SE'F (from the Arabic SAIF) is widely used. I guess that Se'f really means "sword" and Gurade means "sabre". Gurage is an Ethnic group and the word has nothing to do with swords. I am not surprised by the fact that a lot of Ethiopians know absolutely nothing about these things. Nobody I ever talked to even understood a single word of Ge'ez. Again, my mother-in-law, who knew the whole Bible almost by heart, understood Ge'ez, and was able to translate a few inscriptions. The new generations don't even know who Ras Alula was.... Blame it to the DERG, I guess. Bottom line is that I will continue to used these terms as I am convinced they are historically and ethnically correct.