Very Old Firangi with Rapier blade in need of restoration.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by katana

Thank you Battara for your opinion




Would anyone know how 17thC Rapier blades were marked ?
When searching 'Firangi' I found an example that was cited as Moghul, the blade was the 'broadsword' type but the hilt had similar features including the 'line' detail on the knuckle guard. Could this be Moghul ?

I am also interested in how this sword would have been used. Do you think the sword technique would be similar to European Rapier use? I wonder whether the wide pommel would limit the wrist action/movement often used to control a rapier. Would a 'main gauche' or small buckler be used in tandem with this sword ?

Regards David

Hi David,

I'm very glad you asked this question!!!!!
There happens to be a concurrent thread titled EARLY MAKERS TRADE MARKINGS which we have had open for some time now. The purpose of that thread has been to develop a resource which talks about the many blade markings and inscriptions found on trade early trade blades, which indeed often included rapier blades as your example clearly illustrates.

I have trying to convince the forum that the markings found on European trade blades is an important topic in the study of ethnographic swords and edged weapons, unfortunately the overall interest has seemed less than resounding. I am extremely grateful to the members who have actively participated in the thread thus far, and they have already developed the thread comprehensively as a resource that gives us excellent material on these markings.

What is very exciting about your firangi, which is obviously in original state as mounted, proves that not only were early European blades mounted in swords in India, but more importantly, the thin rapier blades were as well. The questions you have so astutely asked are exactly in line with my contention on the markings thread

We have discussed many times over the years, whether European swordfighting techniques actually influenced Indian swordsmen, or whether they simply used the blades to mount in the swords without particular concerns on the key movements applying to the blade or sword forms. One of the great conundrums has been whether the forefinger was scrolled over the quillon to grip the hilt, as often seen in use of 17th Italian and Spanish rapiers.

I hope you and other readers will visit the thread on markings, and I think you will find many important answers on the markings and inscriptions found on these blades. Using the search will reveal some of the various discussions concerning the swordfighting techniques.

Thank you for posting this important example David, and especially for addressing the key questions associated with these weapons!

All very best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi David,
As Jens days, not any man could handle these things.
Concerning their fighting style, while the experts don't post their saying, you may have to consider one of options, in my humble opinnion.
If this were a basic khanda, a two thousand years old hindu weapon, the blade would be straight and single edged, some times with its back reinforced and adorned. The blade shape could widen towards the tip, thus only being efective for thrust if the adversary was not body armoured. Its slashing power, however, was most feared throughout Asia ... one blow could mutilate an arm, armoury included. Remember this is a sort of "bastard" or "hand and half" sword, with that extra spike in the hilt. Such hilt being padded, could absorse the impact. If it were a Firangi with a wide blade, the function could well be the same. But being mounted with a rapier blade, maybe the option could tend, at least partly, to thrust fighting, following the original blade purpose.
On the other hand, those guys didn't use left hand daggers, nor did they go for fencing. When they used a support device, that would be the shield, very often a minuscle one. The Portuguese used to call it "rodela", to remind its round small size.
Concerning the blade marks, it's the usual lottery; some were blank ( maybe most of them ), and others were single or even profusely marked. I would recomend you to check on the thread opened by Jim on this theme
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5453
I hope all i said doesn't sound nonsense
Fernando

[katana]

IT'S ARRIVED......

Hi Jens, thank you, the gilt colouring must have been caused by the lighting conditions when the original photographs were taken.

Hi Jim and Fernando, thank you for your input.


This is definately old , it seems that the rust has been stablised and the sword seems covered with a thin transparent coating

The blade has a short central fuller, the blade 17mm wide, 5mm thick at the forte. Distally tapered thickness from 5mm - 1mm at the tip. Flatterned hexagonal in cross section and double edged. Tip is damaged.

There is a row of 4 dots with a slightly smaller one above the second dot (see photo) I'll assume they are the original maker's mark and are present both sides of the blade. Also within the fuller there are 'dots' that appear to be a 'rivet' but it is not directly present on the exact opposite side of the blade, as if it is some sort of 'inlay' (see pics)

As to construction.... the missing domed pommel and but spike is very revealing. The Rapier blade is held (two rivets) by two strengthening plates which are inverted 'T' shapes creating a cross guard.
Fitted to this 'crossguard' is the 'shell' of the guard, this is one piece construction and includes the knucklebow and the inner 'domed' pommel end. The 'handle' is a contoured pipe which is fitted between the guard shell and the inner dome.
Although the blade is secured to the hilt by the two rivets, it still has a tang which passes through the guard 'shell' through the handle and then through the 'inner' dome. The tang has sheared (a long time ago) but would have continued through the hilt 'outer domed' piece and would have been fixed to the but spike holding it all securely.

I believe that there is a very strong possibillity that the damage occured during combat. I think that the sword was being used two handed (using the but spike) and after a powerful strike (perhaps against a hard object) the tang sheared ...losing the pommel spike and pommel dome.

I have found that the pommel 'dome' is small enough not to interfere with wrist movement, which suggests to me that this could be used as a Rapier....cut and thrust style.

Regards David

[katana]

After reading Fernando's post on this thread...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...?t=5453&page=1


Perhaps the 'dot grouping' of a row of 4 with one dot above is to signify the number 14 or 41.

Originally Posted by fernando

........and with the magic numbers 1414 or 1441, are the oldest examples, which origin is attributed to Portuguese Colonial Arsenals and the realms of Dom Manuel ( 1495-1521 ) untill Dom Sebastião ( 1557-1578). It is worthy to mention that the numbers 1414 and 1441 were not the date of production ( under which very often they were classified ) but uniquely the application of a number considered “magic”. The study of numerology, a fashion of the period, attributed to figure “7”, as to its multiples and combinations, a Divine value. While the Arab cried Allah il Allah, the Christian would engrave the number 7 or, more often the 14 ( this being two times 7 ), or 1414 ( this being two times 7 plus another two times 7 ) or 1441 ( being 14 and the palidrome of another 14) on his blade, wishing to express this way his cry for Divine help in all four directions, as from the moment he unsheathed his sword. Number 1414 is also a reference to the Bible; Job, chapter 14, paragrapgh 14: Man dying, will he live again? Every days of my combat i would wait, untill my change arrived (in the Catholic version). Luther, much considered in Germany in the XVI century, has translated the Greek original, offering in simple language,the following interpretation to this Biblic quotation: When a man dyes, he will live again. So i will continue fighting until my moment comes."
All the best
Fernando

[RSWORD]

Am I seeing lamination in the fullers?

[katana]

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Am I seeing lamination in the fullers?

Hi RS, it is very difficult to tell....the surface of the blade has a great deal of 'micro' pitting. I think all I can say with certainty is .....possibly.


Hi Jim,
I thought the 'dot' pattern of 4 and 1 could be a possible reference to 14, I'm hoping that Fernando may be able to find a reference to this type of marking. Do you think I should repeat my last posting on the ' early maker's trade marking' thread ?

I have been researching Rapiers in an effort to be able to approx. date the blade, it's combat use etc. and hope to post my findings soon.

Kind Regards David

[Jim McDougall]

Absolutely, please do post on the other thread David!
I'm looking forward to what you find on the rapier blade, and I think this sword will be a valuable addition to the thread on markings. It seems we are really expanding the understanding of the markings we are finding, from these simple numerically arranged dots to more complex forms of symbol.

All best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Very astute observation David! That really does seem to tie in with the fascinating variables in concert with the numeric 7 as you have noted. Fernando has been instrumental in providing remarkable data on the numerics and markings that illustrate the importance of symbolism that exists on these blades from the Portuguese parlance. Clearly this is key with our topic on the thread we have going on 'Early Makers Trade Markings' and the history of the markings that occur on ethnographic weapons' blades.
This firangi of yours is perfect evidence for that topic!

Nicely done!!!

All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

Hi David

Originally Posted by katana

... The blade has a short central fuller, the blade 17mm wide, 5mm thick at the forte. Distally tapered thickness from 5mm - 1mm at the tip. Flattened hexagonal in cross section and double edged ...
... I believe that there is a very strong possibillity that the damage occured during combat. I think that the sword was being used two handed (using the but spike) and after a powerful strike (perhaps against a hard object) the tang sheared ...losing the pommel spike and pommel dome ...
... I have found that the pommel 'dome' is small enough not to interfere with wrist movement, which suggests to me that this could be used as a Rapier....cut and thrust style.

Extremely narrow rapier blade ... quite long and with an "estoc" cross section; good ( or almost only good ) for thrusting. Maybe much lighter than a classic Khanda blade ... maybe not even needing the suport of the butt spike for both counter balance and two hand striking. Maybe when the owner mounts this blade on a sword, he knows before hand what the options are; meanning that he might have deliberately cut off the butt spike, seeing no use for it, ready for the rapier actual technique ... fencing and thrusting ?!
As if i knew what i am talking about
Fernando

[William.m]

Ah wonderful! I was watching this sword with interest on ebay but decided not to put a great deal of money on it. Lovely sword. The only think I would consider would be to perhaps wrap some material around the grip.

William

[katana]

Hi Fernando and William .M, thank you for your input

The Rapier 'evolved' very rapidly from the 16th C, having a thick, long blade with cutting edges and a sharp point. By the late 17thC most of the blades had become much thinner, lighter and with the sharp point were designed for the thrust only. The blade on this Firangi fits this description. The origin of the blade is difficult to find, as the blade shape and cross section was common to English, Spanish, Italian and Portuguese made blades of the mid to late 17thC.

Hi Fernando, you are correct. As the blade was designed to 'thrust' it is unlikely the sword was used two handed to strike (cut) by using the pommel 'spike'. However, I still believe, that originally, this sword had one. I have read that sometimes European swordsman would hold a rapier by the pommel, effectively 'lenghening' the reach of the blade tip. Done quickly and covertly an opponent that was safe in the knowledge that he was just 'out of reach' ...suddenly wasn't The pommel spike would 'add' this advantage. Also, you could argue that if the sword was used two handed the force of the thrust would be much greater.Stone in 'A Glossary .....Arms and Armour...' shows a Firangi with a thin, long Rapier blade with the pommel spike.

Rapiers were 'hilt' heavy, to allow greater control of the tip of the blade, the pommel spike would also enhance this necessary 'balance'.

The effectiveness of the Rapier in battle conditions is debateable. Writers of the time (16th-17thC) had varying views on the subject. Used from horseback seems the most 'popular', presumably because of its greater blade length. However, the Rapier would be ineffective against full armour.

As Rapier blades were lighter than many swords of the time ( and not strong enough, to directly parry a heavy blade) a 'companion' was used in the left hand to parry blows from an opponents sword. In Europe the 'main gauche' (dagger), a buckler (small shield) or a cloak (wrapped around the arm to cushion the blow or waved about to confuse and deceive your assailant) were used.
Common sense suggests that the Indian swordsman that used this Firangi probably used a dagger or a Dhal in the opposite hand. Traditionally a Dhal would be used with a Talwar or similar, and would imagine that the dhal would be the favoured choice.

Rapier use tends to be skilled, relying on accurate, lethal thrusts to major organs and the head. Apparently a thrust to a depth of a few inches in specific bodily areas would be 'fatal'. It was not unheard of that two combatants 'charging' at each other would 'run each other through' (ouch!! ) .. a depth of a few inches could easily be achieved, thin and flexable enough to penetrate the rib cage (deflecting around bone in certain situations)

http://www.thearma.org/Youth/rapieroutline.htm
http://swordforum.com/articles/ams/char-rapier.php
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/fencing/blades.html

How was this sword used in India...... why would the Indians adopt a totally alien sword? Did it find a niche/function in the armoury that the other weapons could not fulfil ..... or was it just that it was 'different' ?

Any thoughts?

Kind Regards David

[Jens Nordlunde]

Hi David,

How many Indian firangis have you seen with a rapier blade?

If you have not seen many, what gives you the thought that the Indians had adopted the rapier?

I don’t think they had, and if a few Indians, maybe, had learned to fight with a blade like that, does not mean that they could/would have used this skill when it came to a battle, where all the others fought in another way. Until further I would think it is a sword for show, more than a fighting sword.

Jens