Chinese fork weapon

[Lew]

Also it looks like there is visible folding on the guard.
Josh[/QUOTE]

Josh

I also think this is an old authentic piece but the guard is probably forged wrought iron which would explain the layering affect.

Lew

[josh stout]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

...guard is probably forged wrought iron which would explain the layering affect.

Lew

Thanks for the tip. I don't really understand how wrought iron makes striations like that, but I am happy to take your word on it. The rest would have to be steel though would it not?
Josh

[katana]

Hi Josh,
I agree with Lew that the guard is probably wrought iron, ( the erroded surface 'texture' and 'striations' support this) the 'blade' could also be of the same material, softer than steel it would be resillient to sword blows (if this was used as Sai )

However, the smith could have used cementation (a process of heating iron with charcoal in a closed furnace so that the surface of the iron acquired a high carbon content. ) to harden the blade.(create steel)

Wrought iron purified iron. Pig iron is refined in a converter and then poured into molten iron silicate slag. The resulting semisolid mass is worked /hammered to squeeze out most of the slag. The wrought iron has a fibrous structure with threads of slag running through it; it is tough, malleable, ductile, corrosion resistant, and melts only at high temperatures. It is used to make rivets, bolts, pipes, chains, and anchors, and is also used for ornamental ironwork.


Regards David

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi everyone, from what I have read over the short years of my life, this type of weapon, like all weapons of these origins except the noble sword and a few other exceptions, the "sai" for want of a better word today, had their orgins in farm life, as did your staves, tonfa, flail, nunchaku etc. this style of weapon was once used in pairs for bailing hay, much like a large fork on a pole was used. I am not saying this example was but who knows what hands held it and when.....


Gav

[Chris Evans]

Hi Folks,

For what it is worth, my 2 cents:

These weapons were essentially non-trenchant, though they could poke or even stab, and lacked an edge. They relied on their effectiveness on mass to inflict blows and as such were in no need of temper, soft iron sufficing. I am told that their effectiveness against swords principally lay in their being hurled against the swordsman whilst out of his/her range - Once within range they were used in a manner not too dissimilar to that of the European left hand parrying dagger.

This weapon was introduced to the modern world by Okinawan karate experts, who used it as a traditional weapon. along with several others, equally low tech. They were made by village blacksmiths and the layering reveled by the rust reveals the flow of the metal during the hammer forging process.

Cheers
Chris

[josh stout]

Thanks for the explanations on wrought iron. I still doubt that the business end (blade?) of this gen (sai in Japanese) is iron simply because I have seen many such Chinese sword breaking weapons such as bian and taichi rulers (chih) with tempered steel bodies. There are often some signs of folding, and signs of differential hardening at the edges. I have seen some polished ones where this is clear.

Am I correct in thinking that wrought iron would never be bright and shiny like steel?

The bian were designed to bite into a sword when they hit it, and severely damage it hence the advantage to hardened edges. In the case of the taichi chih, it was fashioned after actual rulers complete with "inch" marks, which would make it more of a craftsman's tool than an agricultural implement. It is interesting to think of the gen originating as a kind of pitchfork. It seems that many of these weapons were made after tools in order to avoid laws against carrying weapons.
Josh

[Chris Evans]

Hi Josh,

Originally Posted by josh stout

Thanks for the explanations on wrought iron. I still doubt that the business end (blade?) of this gen (sai in Japanese) is iron simply because I have seen many such Chinese sword breaking weapons such as bian and taichi rulers (chih) with tempered steel bodies. There are often some signs of folding, and signs of differential hardening at the edges. I have seen some polished ones where this is clear.

Am I correct in thinking that wrought iron would never be bright and shiny like steel?

The bian were designed to bite into a sword when they hit it, and severely damage it hence the advantage to hardened edges. In the case of the taichi chih, it was fashioned after actual rulers complete with "inch" marks, which would make it more of a craftsman's tool than an agricultural implement. It is interesting to think of the gen originating as a kind of pitchfork. It seems that many of these weapons were made after tools in order to avoid laws against carrying weapons.
Josh

My understanding is that apart from hurting the opponent, the primary aim of these weapons was to parry and trap the opposing sword. Damaging it was a secondary consideration. In this respect it is worth remembering that the quillons on Euro left hand parrying daggers were essentially wrought iron and they could trap sword blades without suffering damage.

As to whether these `sais' were tempered steel or soft iron, I guess is that it all depended on who did the forging. We are told that a lot of these weapons, depending on the time and place, were illegal, and were made clandestinely under less than ideal conditions. Also we are told that iron, let alone steel, was very scarce in Okinawa. Iron and steel in olden times was an expensive and hard to come by commodity.

Wrought iron can polish up fairly well and can also be case hardened. But to damage a sword, soft iron would have sufficed, though no doubt hardened steel would have been better. In any event, Japanse swords were notoriously easy to bend and have their edges chipped.

Cheers
Chris