Abyssinian shotel for coment

Rod Charters · 24th November 2007, 03:58 PM

Hi Roanna,
is there a link between the hilt designs as seen in Paolos sword and the couple of daggers I posted. Do you think this is a characteristic of Oromia related tribes or just coincidence in this case?
Rod

roanoa · 26th November 2007, 05:57 PM

Hi, Rod. The handles you are referring to are of typical Abyssinian design, but there is not enough evidence to trace them to a particular ethnic group.

roanoa · 29th November 2007, 03:25 PM

Hi, Rod. Just saw this picture (horribly small..... I hope it will show OK) and thought of you. The knife is identified (I hope the identification is correct) as being from the Sidamo province of Ethiopia. Cheers.

Rod Charters · 30th November 2007, 10:53 PM

Hi Roanna, thanks very much for this. Yes its an interesting style of knife and scabbard and given that the one I have is extremely heavy (34cm blade but approx. 1.5 cm thick in the centre) had some previous discussions on whether it had an agricultural purpose as well as fighting. My guess for cutting enset (ornamental banana commonnon to the area). Thanks Rod.

Emanuel · 7th December 2007, 02:59 PM

Hello,

I talked with an Ethiopian gentleman about Ethiopian swords and when I mentioned the shotel he didn't understand what I meant. He did not recognize the word nor did he understand my description of the sword. Could we have the word wrong? Or is it more likely that the shotel is not in living memory, or is uncommonly known to Ethiopians? I will show him a pic next time and see what he says.

Furthermore when I mentioned the "guradé" he corrected my pronunciation to "guragué". Any comments on this?

Regards,
Emanuel

Jim McDougall · 8th December 2007, 12:06 AM

Hi Emanuel,
I'm really glad you brought this up, as over the years I have tried in vain to find any etymology to many of the terms used for certain ethnographic weapons. Some time ago I mentioned the term 'shotel' to individuals from various parts of Ethiopia... none had the slightest idea what the term meant, so it would appear not to be a word widely known in the languages there. I cannot claim these casually asked questions offer definitive proof that the term is unknown entirely, just interesting that it was not known by unrelated individuals from different regions.

Again, some time ago I discovered that the term 'kaskara' is entirely unknown not only in the Sudan, and by different tribal groups, but in Eritrea as well. I questioned individuals who were from Sudan, Darfur, and Beja tribesman from Eritrea. None knew the word kaskara, and none could offer either any suggestion where the word might have come from. The sword is known only as sa'if. Even a friend who was deeply involved in archaeology and study in Sudan did some checking with the University of Khartoum, and found no results with the word kaskara.

The term katar, for the well known Indian dagger with transverse grips, according to Dr. G.N.Pant is a misnomer. According to him, the term is actually jemadhar, and the misapplication was perpetuated by Egerton in his 1880 work on Indian arms. The katar applies to a traditional form dagger of Northern India. Due to the fact that the term katar has become so firmly embedded as referring to the well known transverse grip dagger in collectors parlance, it would be entirely counter production to try to resolve at this point.

It would seem that much of this curious terminology has come from transliterations, semantics and often outright misunderstanding by early narrators and arms writers. From these works, early collectors have unwittingly created a weapons terminology that often has little to do with the languages where the weapons have originated.

It gets more complicated! There is no such sword as a scimitar....this is simply a transliteration trying to describe shamshir. There are shamshirs in India? Yes..but they are termed talwars!!! The Ottoman kilij is a well known form, but what if the blade is different, what if it has a shamshir blade but kilij hilt? etc etc etc.

If you can come up with any information on 'shotel' it will be truly a revelation and I am more than anxious to hear more. It will truly be one small step for ethnographic weapons -kind, where I have only stumbled!!!

Please keep us posted Emanuel,

All the best,
Jim

Emanuel · 8th December 2007, 02:05 AM

Hi Jim

I'm starting to wonder whether the "guragué" is not related to the Gurage ethnic group. They make up only about 4 percent of the Ethiopian population, so I don't know how great a link can be drawn here.
What I'll do is show the man a number of shotel with different curvatures and ask him what he knows about them.
Then again, Ron likely knows far more than this man would, so perhaps he'll chime in with thoughts.

Spring refers in his "African Arms and Armour" (1993) to Nathaniel Pearce having given the name shotel, in "The Life and Adventures of Nathaniel pearce" (1831). It can actually be read here: http://books.google.com/books?id=58o...0p3_vinsuhwy2o

I love ethno study

!
Warmest regards and safe driving,
Emanuel

29th November 2007, 03:25 PM	#3
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 241	Hi, Rod. Just saw this picture (horribly small..... I hope it will show OK) and thought of you. The knife is identified (I hope the identification is correct) as being from the Sidamo province of Ethiopia. Cheers. Attached Images

8th December 2007, 02:05 AM	#7
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hi Jim I'm starting to wonder whether the "guragué" is not related to the Gurage ethnic group. They make up only about 4 percent of the Ethiopian population, so I don't know how great a link can be drawn here. What I'll do is show the man a number of shotel with different curvatures and ask him what he knows about them. Then again, Ron likely knows far more than this man would, so perhaps he'll chime in with thoughts. Spring refers in his "African Arms and Armour" (1993) to Nathaniel Pearce having given the name shotel, in "The Life and Adventures of Nathaniel pearce" (1831). It can actually be read here: http://books.google.com/books?id=58o...0p3_vinsuhwy2o I love ethno study ! Warmest regards and safe driving, Emanuel Last edited by Manolo; 8th December 2007 at 02:23 AM.

24th November 2007, 03:58 PM	#1
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Hi Roanna, is there a link between the hilt designs as seen in Paolos sword and the couple of daggers I posted. Do you think this is a characteristic of Oromia related tribes or just coincidence in this case? Rod

26th November 2007, 05:57 PM	#2
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 241	Hi, Rod. The handles you are referring to are of typical Abyssinian design, but there is not enough evidence to trace them to a particular ethnic group.

30th November 2007, 10:53 PM	#4
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	Hi Roanna, thanks very much for this. Yes its an interesting style of knife and scabbard and given that the one I have is extremely heavy (34cm blade but approx. 1.5 cm thick in the centre) had some previous discussions on whether it had an agricultural purpose as well as fighting. My guess for cutting enset (ornamental banana commonnon to the area). Thanks Rod.

7th December 2007, 02:59 PM	#5
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, I talked with an Ethiopian gentleman about Ethiopian swords and when I mentioned the shotel he didn't understand what I meant. He did not recognize the word nor did he understand my description of the sword. Could we have the word wrong? Or is it more likely that the shotel is not in living memory, or is uncommonly known to Ethiopians? I will show him a pic next time and see what he says. Furthermore when I mentioned the "guradé" he corrected my pronunciation to "guragué". Any comments on this? Regards, Emanuel

8th December 2007, 12:06 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,196	Hi Emanuel, I'm really glad you brought this up, as over the years I have tried in vain to find any etymology to many of the terms used for certain ethnographic weapons. Some time ago I mentioned the term 'shotel' to individuals from various parts of Ethiopia... none had the slightest idea what the term meant, so it would appear not to be a word widely known in the languages there. I cannot claim these casually asked questions offer definitive proof that the term is unknown entirely, just interesting that it was not known by unrelated individuals from different regions. Again, some time ago I discovered that the term 'kaskara' is entirely unknown not only in the Sudan, and by different tribal groups, but in Eritrea as well. I questioned individuals who were from Sudan, Darfur, and Beja tribesman from Eritrea. None knew the word kaskara, and none could offer either any suggestion where the word might have come from. The sword is known only as sa'if. Even a friend who was deeply involved in archaeology and study in Sudan did some checking with the University of Khartoum, and found no results with the word kaskara. The term katar, for the well known Indian dagger with transverse grips, according to Dr. G.N.Pant is a misnomer. According to him, the term is actually jemadhar, and the misapplication was perpetuated by Egerton in his 1880 work on Indian arms. The katar applies to a traditional form dagger of Northern India. Due to the fact that the term katar has become so firmly embedded as referring to the well known transverse grip dagger in collectors parlance, it would be entirely counter production to try to resolve at this point. It would seem that much of this curious terminology has come from transliterations, semantics and often outright misunderstanding by early narrators and arms writers. From these works, early collectors have unwittingly created a weapons terminology that often has little to do with the languages where the weapons have originated. It gets more complicated! There is no such sword as a scimitar....this is simply a transliteration trying to describe shamshir. There are shamshirs in India? Yes..but they are termed talwars!!! The Ottoman kilij is a well known form, but what if the blade is different, what if it has a shamshir blade but kilij hilt? etc etc etc. If you can come up with any information on 'shotel' it will be truly a revelation and I am more than anxious to hear more. It will truly be one small step for ethnographic weapons -kind, where I have only stumbled!!! Please keep us posted Emanuel, All the best, Jim