A sociological and anthropological question

[Andrew]

A very thought-provoking thread, Antonio.

Question 1
What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy?

I've always liked swords and other weapons. 20 years of martial arts training combined with having a policeman for a father (guns, knives and other weapons were common in my home growing up) further stimulated my interest.

As an adult, my undergraduate studies in sociology and anthropology meshed well with my martial arts related interests. The end result was an interest in collecting edged weapons.

Question 2
Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason?

a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated?
b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction?

I'm a Korean stylist, so I ended up looking elsewhere for edged weapon inspriration, as information on Korean weapons was, at the time (pre internet for me) nearly non-existant. Japanese sword information was, comparitavely, abundant, and I began collecting gunto. I prefer older, "real" pieces, and I could afford these on a student's budget.

A few years ago, I picked up my first dha from ebay. Upon reciept, I was immediately attracted to the feel and look of the weapon, found this site through Google, and have liquidated nearly everything else in my collection to make room for more dha. In my studies of dha, I've grown to love learning about the peoples and cultures that use(d) them, and their history.

Question 3
In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village.
They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction.
This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino.
My question is divided into the following:

• does the snake preside over its shape?
• if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning?
• what is the meaning of the word kris?

I thank you for your contribution to my enlightment, gentlemen.
Best regards.

I'll defer to others more learned on this.

[Andrew]

A. Do you feel that you are frowned upon by the non initiated sword average citizen, friend, family?

My interest is usually met with bemusement. Followed by intense boredom when I attempt to answer a question.

I can never shake the feeling that I'm percieved as a "sword nerd".

B. How do you feel about the social acceptance of swords?

• frowned upon
• lack of interest
• fear or weariness?
  

• All of the above, from various people, at various times. Unfortunately, many see swords as only deadly weapons or, worse, as toys and novelties. The deeper and more significant truths are there to be seen and experienced, but so many miss it.
  
  

C. Therefore, do you think that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto?

In a sense, yes, but certainly less so in a country like the US which prizes weapons and the right to own them as fundamental.

[Conogre]

In response to your second set of queries, I think A and C can be answered together, with B being nearly the same.

Swords in general, at least here in the US, are currently in a rather unique position with a fairly large portion of the blue collar class currently showing more interest in them than at any time since the birth of our nation, largely influenced by the motion picture industry to the point that they are being sold en masse on the Home Shopping Channel.
To a lesser degree, historical and ethnographic swords are also experiencing a heyday due to the popularity of Rennaissance Fairs and educational television among some of the more intellectual circles as well.

The first and third questions, however, are in direct conflict with the views just given, particularly among the female members of society, as well as the pseudo-intellectual and passafistic portions of society, where they are viewed strictly as weapons of war and symbols of barbarism.

I singled out an extremely large portion of the female gender for a reason that's probably unconscious to most, that being bladed weapons, knives in particular, and with swords often seen as nothing more than exagerated knives, are the weapon of choice for rapists, thus have become a symbol of violent masculine aggression that I feel actually transcends the logical mind and hits directly at the subconscious in American women.
As an ex-police officer I think I can state almost categorically that swords and knives are not only condemned but are actually abhorrent, thus despised, to a much larger percentage of the public than many can even begin to comprehend.
If one looks deeply into this, the amazing part is that only bladed weapons in sporting, hunting or military dress inspire this insidious dread, with cutlery often exempt, due to their familiarity with the steel in this incarnation.
Surprisingly, women often seem much more willing to allow a firearm into the home rather than a knife or a sword, even though fatalaties in children are almost insignificant compared to accidental shootings.
Mike

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Conogre

In response to your second set of queries, I think A and C can be answered together, with B being nearly the same.

Swords in general, at least here in the US, are currently in a rather unique position with a fairly large portion of the blue collar class currently showing more interest in them than at any time since the birth of our nation, largely influenced by the motion picture industry to the point that they are being sold en masse on the Home Shopping Channel.
To a lesser degree, historical and ethnographic swords are also experiencing a heyday due to the popularity of Rennaissance Fairs and educational television among some of the more intellectual circles as well.

Apologies for the delayed reply
We are at least 12 hours apart.
I can imagine the power of movies and the Shopping Channels. I've been to the US three times and saw some very funny Shopping programmes. I'm not used to it. Different countries, different methods.

The first and third questions, however, are in direct conflict with the views just given, particularly among the female members of society, as well as the pseudo-intellectual and passafistic portions of society, where they are viewed strictly as weapons of war and symbols of barbarism.

I singled out an extremely large portion of the female gender for a reason that's probably unconscious to most, that being bladed weapons, knives in particular, and with swords often seen as nothing more than exagerated knives, are the weapon of choice for rapists, thus have become a symbol of violent masculine aggression that I feel actually transcends the logical mind and hits directly at the subconscious in American women.
As an ex-police officer I think I can state almost categorically that swords and knives are not only condemned but are actually abhorrent, thus despised, to a much larger percentage of the public than many can even begin to comprehend.
If one looks deeply into this, the amazing part is that only bladed weapons in sporting, hunting or military dress inspire this insidious dread, with cutlery often exempt, due to their familiarity with the steel in this incarnation.
Surprisingly, women often seem much more willing to allow a firearm into the home rather than a knife or a sword, even though fatalaties in children are almost insignificant compared to accidental shootings.
Mike

Your views are certainly most enlightened by field experience due to your profession. I think they are quite open, direct, no-frills and should be, IMHO viewed in a very down-to-earth way.
Rapists and the likes can surely use a knife for the threat in a close quarter is very big. Sick minds, however...
Thank you sir, for your generous contribution.

Best

[RSWORD]

What a fabulous post. It is always interesting learning about our collecting peers from such a personal avenue as how we became hooked. I am a sword addict. I have been clean and sober for about 3 weeks now, however, their is a great show coming up in Baltimore and I am sure to fall off the wagon again. Why am I so hooked? Well, I have found education to be the culprit. Over the years as I have learned more and more about these objects, the deeper my appreciation and understanding have been and the more I desire. I can understand now why an appraiser on the antique road show can burst into tears upon examination of a rare and prized object. I would have thought them over sensitive just a few years back. In old swords, I find three wonderful aspects:
1) Their historical connetation. It is great having a tangible link to the past. To own an object that was carried at Waterloo, the Boxer Rebellion or any other famous battle or period elicits immediate flash backs to who might have carried this sword originally and what was their cause and how did they use this thing. I enjoy learning about the time period a sword is from and how it partook in that moment in history.

2) Their cultural connetation. I have learned more about other cultures through my collecting hobby than I ever would have a lifetime of living without them. Again, it is the educational process. The more you learn about a culture, the more you appreciate them. The more you learn about an object, the more you begin to appreciate it.

3) The craftmanship. These are objects of violence, war, freedom, self defense, costume and of course were crafted to function justly. Despite their lethality, they can be as delicately crafted as anything done by a jeweler or a lady embroiders. What a combination. To hold a sword that you know had its place in history, was made to be used, yet is as beautiful as any other art object, just leaves me flabbergasted.


Have I been outcast by society for being a collector of such objects. Not really. I know doctors that collect antique bedpans and I say "My God man, are you crazy!". Then, I pause, and think they might think the same about me. Therefore, certainly the bedpan collecting doctors don't look at me particularly crazily and I have yet to feel ostracized by anyone that I shared my collecting interests with.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Greetings RSWORD,

Thank you. But I was curious and hope these questions could help in building up a sociological profile of collectors.
Similar questions have been posted before elsewhere, but people could not keep a level of consistency in their replies. In a more mature forum like this great forum, it is easier to understand it.

Maybe Andrew could create a poll with these and other questions, so that we could all post and see in a synthetised way a view of the choices. I unfortunately am not yet fully familiar with all the features of this great forum.

I must state that my interests are not confined by swords, which allows me perhaps to promptly accept bedpans collecting

No no, I don't use them

Thank you for posting.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

.

Maybe Andrew could create a poll with these and other questions, so that we could all post and see in a synthetised way a view of the choices. I unfortunately am not yet fully familiar with all the features of this great forum.
.

Antonio, I believe I can add a poll to this thread, but I haven't yet tried it.

Set forth the poll question and choices you'd like, and I'll give it a try.

[Yannis]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

Maybe Andrew could create a poll with these and other questions, so that we could all post and see in a synthetised way a view of the choices.

A nice idea! Moderators of the forum could create polls on your questions or some other topics like:
Favorite sword – I wonder if kriss lovers are more than dha lovers in this forum.
Area of collection – Please let me alone to collect Balkan stuff.
Best material of the hilt – Walrus ivory or Rhino horn?
Next president – (ops! This is off topic ).

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Andrew

My interest is usually met with bemusement. Followed by intense boredom when I attempt to answer a question.

It happened to me with Portuguese friends, never with Chinese friends.
My design students were very curious in seeing some of my swords, as I used Martial Arts to teach design principles.

I can never shake the feeling that I'm percieved as a "sword nerd".

All of the above, from various people, at various times. Unfortunately, many see swords as only deadly weapons or, worse, as toys and novelties. The deeper and more significant truths are there to be seen and experienced, but so many miss it.

In a sense, yes, but certainly less so in a country like the US which prizes weapons and the right to own them as fundamental.

I quickly gave up trying to explain what a hamon was and just go about other areas of interests to our guests

In fact one of my early and most successful students collects cars and he just became pale the only time I unsheathed a sword to show him.
Please put it away, he said. It is indeed a very primitive (in the sense of unexplainable) fear that some have, which is definitely a barrier to the loss of prejudices.

Very best

Conogre,

I am in a busy period. Please kindly allow me a later reply to your most interesting reply full of field experience.
I will get back later

Kindest regards.

[Spunjer]

mr. cejunior,
it seems like you are well respected by some of the pillars of this forum. your questions are very thought provoking. if you may, i would like to answer those questions.

Question 1
What is the real driving force behind your interest in swords? Was it initially based on an adult interest for ethnography and anthropology or was it originally based on and evolution from childhood or adolescent fantasy?

it was actually gradual. my fascination started while i was taking filipino martial arts. when i finally had the chance to go back to the philippines, i picked up some swords for souvenirs. didn't mess with it for awhile until last year, when i took it out of the closet and did some research on it. luckily, i found this website, and from then on, learned tons of info from some of the friendliest people i've met on and offline.

Question 2
Is your particular interest in ethnographic weapons based on any specific reason?
a. such as being a national of the country from where those weapons are originated?
b. if not, what particular reasons are behind your attraction?

i would go with a.). i left philippines in my early teens an am now currently residing in the states. seeing these swords on my wall kinda give my home a piece of the old country while at the same time it gives my kids a daily reminder of where their other half came from.

Question 3
In some tribes of Africa, smiths are outcasts that live outside the village.
They are uncircumcised, therefore they posses both the masculine and the feminine, symbolically having the entirety which confers them, as in the Congo culture, the necessary protection to work iron, a product of Mother Earth's womb extraction.
This being said, some shapes may have a magical connotation. And I am referring specifically to the Kris, be it Indonesian, Malay or Philippino.
My question is divided into the following:

* does the snake preside over its shape?
* if that is true, does it mean to confer speed or just magic or some other meaning?
* what is the meaning of the word kris?

i'm really interested to know the answers to those questions as well. since the moro kris was derived from the neighboring countries' swords, i don't think any pilipino can answer that . the indonesians would prolly know, tho.

One other question I deem important.

A. Do you feel that you are frowned upon by the non initiated sword average citizen, friend, family?

it's funny you mentioned that. i live in the midwest, known as the bible belt. the second ammendment in this here part of the country might as well be the elevnth commandment. needless to say, a lot of my friends are gun collectors, so they don't have a word to say about my hobby. as a matter of fact, it's starting to peak their interest. the way i approach this, is i tried to tie up the history of these weapons to theirs, i.e. krag vs. kris, the .45, etc. they actually appreciate seeing the weapons "of the other side".

B. How do you feel about the social acceptance of swords?

* frowned upon
* lack of interest
* fear or weariness?

as a budding collector, i haven't heard any negative comments from people that knows about my hobby.

C. Therefore, do you think that swords are placed in a socio-cultural ghetto?

in my current situation, i don't it is; on the other hand, martial arts in this here neck of the woods could be in that category...

once again, welcome and nice to meet you.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

mr. cejunior,
it seems like you are well respected by some of the pillars of this forum. your questions are very thought provoking. if you may, i would like to answer those questions.

Greetings Spunjer,

It is only their good and kind eyes, nothing more I am honored that you consider them the pillars of this forum. I have no hesitation in agreeing with you.

it was actually gradual. my fascination started while i was taking filipino martial arts. when i finally had the chance to go back to the philippines, i picked up some swords for souvenirs. didn't mess with it for awhile until last year, when i took it out of the closet and did some research on it. luckily, i found this website, and from then on, learned tons of info from some of the friendliest people i've met on and offline.

This is a great way to start, isn't it? We do have things in the closet of our minds that a a moment just come out. Then I will also agree with you that this is the friendliest and most polite forum I have been to.

i would go with a.). i left philippines in my early teens an am now currently residing in the states. seeing these swords on my wall kinda give my home a piece of the old country while at the same time it gives my kids a daily reminder of where their other half came from.
i'm really interested to know the answers to those questions as well. since the moro kris was derived from the neighboring countries' swords, i don't think any pilipino can answer that . the indonesians would prolly know, tho.

Thank you for sharing. In fact keeping a connection to our roots is such an important thing. I presume that we will hopefully have a contribution for the clarification of the meaning of Kris.

it's funny you mentioned that. i live in the midwest, known as the bible belt. the second ammendment in this here part of the country might as well be the elevnth commandment. needless to say, a lot of my friends are gun collectors, so they don't have a word to say about my hobby. as a matter of fact, it's starting to peak their interest. the way i approach this, is i tried to tie up the history of these weapons to theirs, i.e. krag vs. kris, the .45, etc. they actually appreciate seeing the weapons "of the other side".

as a budding collector, i haven't heard any negative comments from people that knows about my hobby.

in my current situation, i don't it is; on the other hand, martial arts in this here neck of the woods could be in that category...

once again, welcome and nice to meet you.

Thank you for the kind welcome. Nice to meet you too
I was wondering what is the meaning of bible belt ?
The sword is also more attractive to me, and for peaceful reasons as well.
I wonder if you succeeded in tying up your sword history with a colt or a smith and wesson.
Really curious. Thank you once again

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by Andrew

A very thought-provoking thread, Antonio.

I've always liked swords and other weapons. 20 years of martial arts training combined with having a policeman for a father (guns, knives and other weapons were common in my home growing up) further stimulated my interest.
As an adult, my undergraduate studies in sociology and anthropology meshed well with my martial arts related interests. The end result was an interest in collecting edged weapons.

Hello Andrew ,
Most kind of you. What an excellent blend of interests. I'm glad you are well versed in anthropology and sociology, for evident reasons .
We could never had guns here, in the past. Even now it is very difficult to obtain.

I'm a Korean stylist, so I ended up looking elsewhere for edged weapon inspriration, as information on Korean weapons was, at the time (pre internet for me) nearly non-existant. Japanese sword information was, comparitavely, abundant, and I began collecting gunto. I prefer older, "real" pieces, and I could afford these on a student's budget.

Are you talking Gumdo or Taekwondo? I am very curious
I may reserve a surprise for you in about a month's time

A few years ago, I picked up my first dha from ebay. Upon reciept, I was immediately attracted to the feel and look of the weapon, found this site through Google, and have liquidated nearly everything else in my collection to make room for more dha. In my studies of dha, I've grown to love learning about the peoples and cultures that use(d) them, and their history.


I'll defer to others more learned on this.

I find the dha and the kris some of the most interesting swords, which carry a very genuine quality and flavour. Of course the creative side of me had to intervene in the dha I designed in a contemporary way that I hope one day to demonstrate how it was devised to be used.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Antonio Cejunior

Hello Andrew ,
Most kind of you. What an excellent blend of interests. I'm glad you are well versed in anthropology and sociology, for evident reasons .
We could never had guns here, in the past. Even now it is very difficult to obtain.


Are you talking Gumdo or Taekwondo? I am very curious
I may reserve a surprise for you in about a month's time


I find the dha and the kris some of the most interesting swords, which carry a very genuine quality and flavour. Of course the creative side of me had to intervene in the dha I designed in a contemporary way that I hope one day to demonstrate how it was devised to be used.

Hi Antonio:

My sociology and anthropology are a bit atrophied from lack of use: the law tends to do that.

I study ITF Taekwon-do (under the late Gen. Choi, Hong Hi). However, I no longer compete or instruct, as other things have taken priority. Good Gum-do instructors are rare and hard to find, so I never had the opportunity to train.

I like the first dha you designed, and I'm eagerly anticipating what I suspect you have coming.

Best,
Andrew

[Antonio Cejunior]

Greetings again Andrew

Well, don't be modest. And I will never forget that your best weapon is your word. Remember? So I have high expectations

Ah, Taekwon-do. Very good indeed.
I have been introduced to Haedong Gum-do and it is impressive.
This video shows the ease of the Korean sword in cutting bamboo as if it were pool noodles.

I have uploaded the video for the earlier link was not working

Here is my smaller version of it. Impressive nonetheless, specially when you look at the diameter of the fallen bamboos.

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/hdgdvideo.htm

Note: It will take some time to download, but it is worth the wait, I can assure you.

In a month's time will be a review. That's all I can say for now.
I want to see for myself first. There's a Chinese saying that there is always a mountain higher than the highest mountain we know of.
Until my January visit to Korea, I wasn't aware of Haedong Gum-do.
Now I can say after seeing some practice, that it is a devastating sword set of forms.
Best

[John]

Originally Posted by Andrew

I study ITF Taekwon-do (under the late Gen. Choi, Hong Hi)....

Small world Andrew. I guess you'll have no problem recognising the younger Choi in this 1968 picture (which just happen to be stored in disk) taken when he was visiting Sabah and Chan-Yong Kim's school in Kota Kinabalu. Kim was at Choi's left and was my childhood MA teacher.

As to the meaning of the word Keris, I believe this was covered in renouned "What constitutes a good keris" thread in a post by Wong Desa which you may like to dig up.

"Huan Ying" to the forum Antonio.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Originally Posted by John

"Huan Ying" to the forum Antonio.

Xié xié ni John

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by John

Small world Andrew. I guess you'll have no problem recognising the younger Choi in this 1968 picture (which just happen to be stored in disk) taken when he was visiting Sabah and Chan-Yong Kim's school in Kota Kinabalu. Kim was at Choi's left and was my childhood MA teacher.

Hi John! Great picture, thanks.

I had the privilege of training with Gen. Choi several times here in the US. Unfortunately, those seminars were a bit bigger.

The political in-fighting in the ITF leading up to and following the General's death has been unfortunate. It's one reason my training has waned in recent years.

[wolviex]

Antonio: I must say that in my work and interests around weapon hardly ever I met with fear, weariness or frown upon - with lack of interest, yes, but it's obvious for me that not everyone should be interest with that sort of things - I would die if someone forced me to fascinate with i.e. cosmetics . It's the other story with me than with our forum friends. I don't collect weapons, so I don't have knives, sabres or anything that look sinisterly on the walls, in cabinets, etc. - so fear of other peaple is avoiding me .

But there is another point of view which I would like to present - weapons in the eyes of Polish museum workers. Generally there is a feeling that all of this is just a piece of metal junk. For many people first art are paintings. Of course this conviction is passing quickly away when they are confront with beaty and art of this "junk". Beside this, other museum workers treating weapons as a kind of gadgets, not seriously enough. All of this is of course a consequence of lack of knowledge, I understand it, and I don't make a thing out of this.

Some of the museum ladies are sometimes trying to pretend "disgust" with weapons - "you can be hurt with this" - but we (we - because I'm not working alone) make a laugh at it. Sometimes we are joking, that we can make an uprising against some unpopular decisions of director, and we can equip all personel, roll out cannons, and fight for whats better for us .

Another detached remark: I also make a lessons for kids, teenagers, students. If the teacher is making appointement with me, there is sometimes an offer to separate girls and boys. Boys are going to see weapons, girls another exhibitions. It's of course superstition - I found, that during lessons often the girls getting more interested in topic than the boys .

I'm fascinating with this forum too, Antonio. The portion of knowledge I get here is bigger than our Polish book market can give you. I wanted put a smiley face here, but to be serious it isn't funny. In reality, I'm without chance to get a single book from aboard, I'm in need of. So the work is hard. The researches from time to time are in deadlock . Hope it's getting better.

Best regards!