Chinese fork weapon

fearn · 21st November 2007, 06:50 PM

Hi Vandoo,

These weapons are common from (supposedly) India, through Indonesia (where they're called tjabang) up to Japan. They show the most diversity in form in Indonesia. Since they spread along the coast, they were probably carried by traders and sailors. I've seen Chinese, Indonesian, and Okinawan examples, and the Chinese examples often come from coastal provinces. Actually, I have a pair--modern, but real fun to play with.

Anyway, they're not great against swords, but they work pretty well against staves and other blunt weapons. The Okinawan police carried three of them, and supposedly you can hook three of them together to make a decent pair of handcuffs. The Edo police carried a jutte, which has a single hook, primarily as a symbol of authority, and they used it against peace-time samurai who didn't really know how to use their swords. During the Warring States period, Japanese cops worked in trios with pole weapons to subdue samurai, which tells you how dangerous they were. That's all from Donn Draeger's three-book series on Japanese martial arts.

My 0.02 cents,

F

josh stout · 26th November 2007, 04:51 PM

What I like about this one is it appears to be an older and finer example than most Chinese pieces I have seen. In particular the guard is very graceful and has less of a "village weapon" look to it than most. Also it looks like there is visible folding on the guard.
Josh

Lew · 26th November 2007, 06:19 PM

Also it looks like there is visible folding on the guard.
Josh[/QUOTE]

Josh

I also think this is an old authentic piece but the guard is probably forged wrought iron which would explain the layering affect.

Lew

josh stout · 27th November 2007, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

...guard is probably forged wrought iron which would explain the layering affect.

Lew

Thanks for the tip. I don't really understand how wrought iron makes striations like that, but I am happy to take your word on it. The rest would have to be steel though would it not?
Josh

katana · 27th November 2007, 04:40 PM

Hi Josh,
I agree with Lew that the guard is probably wrought iron, ( the erroded surface 'texture' and 'striations' support this) the 'blade' could also be of the same material, softer than steel it would be resillient to sword blows (if this was used as Sai )

However, the smith could have used cementation (a process of heating iron with charcoal in a closed furnace so that the surface of the iron acquired a high carbon content. ) to harden the blade.(create steel)

Wrought iron purified iron. Pig iron is refined in a converter and then poured into molten iron silicate slag. The resulting semisolid mass is worked /hammered to squeeze out most of the slag. The wrought iron has a fibrous structure with threads of slag running through it; it is tough, malleable, ductile, corrosion resistant, and melts only at high temperatures. It is used to make rivets, bolts, pipes, chains, and anchors, and is also used for ornamental ironwork.

Regards David

Gavin Nugent · 28th November 2007, 10:12 PM

Hi everyone, from what I have read over the short years of my life, this type of weapon, like all weapons of these origins except the noble sword and a few other exceptions, the "sai" for want of a better word today, had their orgins in farm life, as did your staves, tonfa, flail, nunchaku etc. this style of weapon was once used in pairs for bailing hay, much like a large fork on a pole was used. I am not saying this example was but who knows what hands held it and when.....

Gav

Chris Evans · 29th November 2007, 12:55 AM

Hi Folks,

For what it is worth, my 2 cents:

These weapons were essentially non-trenchant, though they could poke or even stab, and lacked an edge. They relied on their effectiveness on mass to inflict blows and as such were in no need of temper, soft iron sufficing. I am told that their effectiveness against swords principally lay in their being hurled against the swordsman whilst out of his/her range - Once within range they were used in a manner not too dissimilar to that of the European left hand parrying dagger.

This weapon was introduced to the modern world by Okinawan karate experts, who used it as a traditional weapon. along with several others, equally low tech. They were made by village blacksmiths and the layering reveled by the rust reveals the flow of the metal during the hammer forging process.

Cheers
Chris

28th November 2007, 10:12 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	My 2 cents worth Hi everyone, from what I have read over the short years of my life, this type of weapon, like all weapons of these origins except the noble sword and a few other exceptions, the "sai" for want of a better word today, had their orgins in farm life, as did your staves, tonfa, flail, nunchaku etc. this style of weapon was once used in pairs for bailing hay, much like a large fork on a pole was used. I am not saying this example was but who knows what hands held it and when..... Gav

29th November 2007, 12:55 AM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Folks, For what it is worth, my 2 cents: These weapons were essentially non-trenchant, though they could poke or even stab, and lacked an edge. They relied on their effectiveness on mass to inflict blows and as such were in no need of temper, soft iron sufficing. I am told that their effectiveness against swords principally lay in their being hurled against the swordsman whilst out of his/her range - Once within range they were used in a manner not too dissimilar to that of the European left hand parrying dagger. This weapon was introduced to the modern world by Okinawan karate experts, who used it as a traditional weapon. along with several others, equally low tech. They were made by village blacksmiths and the layering reveled by the rust reveals the flow of the metal during the hammer forging process. Cheers Chris Last edited by Chris Evans; 29th November 2007 at 01:42 AM.

21st November 2007, 06:50 PM	#1
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Vandoo, These weapons are common from (supposedly) India, through Indonesia (where they're called tjabang) up to Japan. They show the most diversity in form in Indonesia. Since they spread along the coast, they were probably carried by traders and sailors. I've seen Chinese, Indonesian, and Okinawan examples, and the Chinese examples often come from coastal provinces. Actually, I have a pair--modern, but real fun to play with. Anyway, they're not great against swords, but they work pretty well against staves and other blunt weapons. The Okinawan police carried three of them, and supposedly you can hook three of them together to make a decent pair of handcuffs. The Edo police carried a jutte, which has a single hook, primarily as a symbol of authority, and they used it against peace-time samurai who didn't really know how to use their swords. During the Warring States period, Japanese cops worked in trios with pole weapons to subdue samurai, which tells you how dangerous they were. That's all from Donn Draeger's three-book series on Japanese martial arts. My 0.02 cents, F

26th November 2007, 04:51 PM	#2
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	What I like about this one is it appears to be an older and finer example than most Chinese pieces I have seen. In particular the guard is very graceful and has less of a "village weapon" look to it than most. Also it looks like there is visible folding on the guard. Josh

26th November 2007, 06:19 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Also it looks like there is visible folding on the guard. Josh[/QUOTE] Josh I also think this is an old authentic piece but the guard is probably forged wrought iron which would explain the layering affect. Lew

27th November 2007, 04:40 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Josh, I agree with Lew that the guard is probably wrought iron, ( the erroded surface 'texture' and 'striations' support this) the 'blade' could also be of the same material, softer than steel it would be resillient to sword blows (if this was used as Sai ) However, the smith could have used cementation (a process of heating iron with charcoal in a closed furnace so that the surface of the iron acquired a high carbon content. ) to harden the blade.(create steel) Wrought iron purified iron. Pig iron is refined in a converter and then poured into molten iron silicate slag. The resulting semisolid mass is worked /hammered to squeeze out most of the slag. The wrought iron has a fibrous structure with threads of slag running through it; it is tough, malleable, ductile, corrosion resistant, and melts only at high temperatures. It is used to make rivets, bolts, pipes, chains, and anchors, and is also used for ornamental ironwork. Regards David