Greneng

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Kiai Carita, I admire your absolute certainty.

Most especially do I admire it in the absence of any certainty that the object to which the word that has been romanised as "kres" was in fact an object that we would recognise as a keris. It may have been, then again it may not have been. Interestingly, the word "kres" is not to be found in Zoetmulder.

Pak Alan,

I am certain that I have read somewhere, that the first inscriptions of keris mention it as KRES, and experts who analysed the prasasti were convinced that kres means keris. I notice your certainty in judging the knowledge of the experts who examined the paticular prasasti that I think was mentioned in Harsrinuksma's ensiklopedi. I can't say that they were not certain that the word kres in the prasasti was refering to an object we would now recognize as a keris. In fact, I believe their opinion, that kres is refering to keris.

The words kres and keris contain the sound RIS, which is also related to IRIS, which is an important function of keris as a physical weapon besides stabbing, but that is not important in this discussion.

My opinion that a leter like the caraka DHA exists in the Bali alphabet comes from this site: http://www.babadbali.com/aksarabali/books/tobacaan.htm

Salam hangat,

Bram

[drdavid]

Dear all, thank you for some wonderful contributions. If you would allow me a flight of intellectual fancy I will float the following ideas.

The concept that the greneng has a function which determined its form seems to have reasonable support.

It seems unlikely that the function was related to its use as a weapon.

It appears likely that the greneng appeared somewhere in the 1100-1300 year range CE (current era= same as AD).

It seems probably that the greneng 'arrived' in that relatively short period of history in what is very similar to its current form and most importantly in a relatively constant form ie it is not the evolution of a decorative tradition.

This form was important to the culture which conceived it and hence was repeated consistently. It is possible/probable that the current cultural interpretation of the form is not the same as its original one.

It has been suggested that all the ups and downs of the greneng represents the northern coastline of the island of Java, (certainly if you look at maps of some stretches of this coastline there are areas that have the 'dha' shape recurrently).

Perhaps given all this the greneng was originally a physical representation (a map) of the area of overlordship/influence of one of the dynasties of central and/or eastern Java (the Singosari or the Majapahit seem most likely given the dates but if evidence of the greneng is found earlier then other regimes would fit). The dynasty wished to assert its authority over a given area (perhaps after a rebellion, perhaps after consolidating power) and chose to do it by carving it into one of their most powerful representational tools, their keris.

please feel free to shred this idea, it is as I said just a flight of fancy
drd

[A. G. Maisey]

Pak Ganja, I really do have a great deal of difficulty in understanding why you would attempt to discourage anybody from reading your interesting and valuable contribution to discussion.I am certain that there are many people who will read this who do not know this part of the Aji Saka legend, and your contribution will add to their knowledge.

However, let us be fair:- the translation and interpretation you have given is not the only one possible from the hanacaraka.Moreover, even when we look at the these translations and interpretations, the true meanings are not simple and obvious. In fact we are considering a moral teaching that has strong links with 19th-20th century Kejawen. Even this moral teaching can be interpreted in varying ways, to carry varying lessons.

I'm not going to diverge into talking about this here, but for those of you who do have an interest, a few thoughtful minutes with Mr. Google will prove very instructive. You might like to start with the Joglosemar site:-

http://www.joglosemar.co.id/kejawen/perfectlife.html

There is much to be discovered about this if you are prepared to put in the time.

But the crux of the matter is this:- Aji Saka is a legendary figure, as is Medang Kamulan. I do not know the origins of this legend, nor when it first began to appear, but if we look at the variations, it does seem obvious that as with all legends it has developed through the telling and retelling, and the current version seems to owe much to the clash between local Javanese Islam and mainstream Islam which occurred at the end of the 19th century. This was probably due to the actions of people returning from The Haj, and resulted in a distinction being made for the first time between the abangan and the santri.

When we begin to consider legend as a source for historic possibility, we need to consider not just the source of the legend, but the way in which it has developed over time.

Then of course we need to consider the philosophy of the hanacaraka, coming to us from PB IX and Yasadipura.But the question must arise:- what has this got to do with the origin of the greneng? I submit:- nothing.

But still, its interesting---just doesn't have anything at all to do with what we are talking about.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

G'day Bram. Can I call you Bram, or Pak Bram, or Pak Kiai? Which would you prefer?

Howabout if I just call you Bram, and you can call me Alan? Lets drop the formalities.

About the "kres" thing, I've also read what you are telling us many times, but I have not yet seen a complete translation done by a qualified scholar and subjected to peer review. All I have seen is the romanisation of the original script and interpretations placed upon it by people who may, or may not be qualified to give that interpretation.
In fact, I'm not even certain as to what inscription this is. I think I've read the source somewhere, but off the top of my head, I don't know it, I don't know who has done the translations, who has checked them---I know nothing except that there is an old inscription that contains the word "kres".

Yes, "kres" resembles "kris", and it might in fact be the same word and mean the same, but even if it does, at the time of the inscription, this word could have referred to an object other than that which we today would recognise as a keris. Then there is the fact that the most authoritative work to date on the Old Javanese lexicon---Zoetmulder--- does not list the word "kres".

Interestingly, the word "kres" is a Modern Javanese word having the sense of cutting or slashing.

I think you may have been reading something into my writing that was not there Bram. I have no certainty at all that the experts who examined the inscription that you mention were either correct or incorrect. How could I have?
I have not seen the complete inscription.
I do not know the process that was applied to romanise it.
I do not who worked on it and who checked it.
I know nothing at all about it, except a vague reference in a book prepared for the popular market.

I do thank you most sincerely for pointing out that this inscription was mentioned in Ensiklopedi. I know I've seen reference to it in other places as well, but Ensiklopedi was a good start. Here we are told that it is an inscription dating from 500AD, it is written in Pallava script, and the language used is Sanscrit. That's a lot of info.

Yes, it would have been written in Pallava script if it was written in 500AD. Last known Pallava script use in an inscription was in March 804.

But was it written in Sanscrit?
I'm not so sure that it was written in Sanscrit. It may have been. The Tarumanegara inscription was written in Sanscrit, and that was about the same time as the "kres" inscription.We don't see Old Kawi until the 8th century, so, yeah, OK, lets agree this "kres" inscription was written in Sanscrit.
But once we do that we have a problem, because Macdonell does not list the word "kres" as a part of the Sanscrit lexicon. In fact, I don't think that the syllabel "kre" occurs at the beginning of a word in Sanscrit; "kri" does occur fairly frequently. Interestingly the word and syllabel "kris" has the sense of thinness in Sanscrit.

So---where does this leave us in respect of our respected archaic inscription that contains (supposedly) the word "kres"?

Personally, I think we need to know a wee bit more about the inscription, its translators, and its checkers, before we draw any conclusions at all.

In any case, this inscription was from about 500AD.

It would be a magical feat of language development if the word "kres" really and truly referred to an object that we would recognise as a kris.
Language is living beast. Constantly moving, jumping and changing direction. Once it ceases to behave thus it dies.

Yes, I think many of us may have heard the "iris" relationship brought up in the past. In fact, I wrote a paper about this maybe 25-30 years ago---before I learnt that I knew nothing.But still, even though I knew nothing---and in truth, still do not--- it wasn't a bad guess, because "iris" does occur in Old Javanese, and might logically be considered as a root word for "kris", which also appears in Old Javanese. Maybe it might not be a direct root, but the idea is there, and the feeling of "slicing", "making thinner", the Sanscrit "kris", and the Old Javanese "kris", together with Old Javanese "iris".

Yeah---why not? Looks like a good basis for a thesis to me.

The mistake I made in my old paper was to link "iris" to Old Malay, rather than Old Javanese.

But anyway, all this interesting stuff has wandered away from our core question:- origin of the greneng.

I've already remarked upon the way I feel this question should be considered, so I won't repeat myself.

I love this divergent crap. It means we can talk all day if we feel so inclined. Good stuff, and interesting. Lets you play with ideas.

Keep this stuff coming Bram. Love it!!


Thanks for the alphabet link.
As I said previously, I was running on memory. What I had was a mental picture of the Balinese alphabet with the same order as the Javanese alphabet, but with different romanisations, which obviously can be put down to differing speech inflections. After looking at your link I threw "balinese alphabet" into google. Here's what I got:-

http://www.omniglot.com/writing/balinese.htm

Actually, the romanisation ain't worth a cupfull of cold water; what we need to look at are the original script representations.In my link you'll see these are a modern version. If you go to Raffles you'll find that he presents maybe as many as a dozen different script forms that have been used in the past for writing Javanese---and by extension, Kawi and Balinese.Yes, of course there's a DA, or a DHA in the Balinese alphabet, but most importantly, there is a script character that echoes the Javanese DHA.---whether the person who romanises it aspirates it or not.


As for your beliefs, Bram.
These are your own personal property, and it is not my intention to try to divest you of your own personal property.
Hold fast to your beliefs. Ignore those who would try to make you change them.
However, please do make room for a little logic.
We all have room for both.In one situation we can be creatures of belief, in a different situation, creatures of logic.
Retain the beliefs, but don't let them interfere with the logic.

Please note:-

I have made an error in the above post.

Pak Ganja was kind enough to indirectly point out to me that the word "kres" is mentioned in an inscription dating from 842AD, not 500AD.

This means that it was written in Old Javanese, not Sanscrit.

Which in turn means that what I have written above about "kres" is irrelevant to the discussion.

This "kres" word matter has been more fully addressed in the "Inscriptions" thread.

I apologise for any inconvenience I may have caused.

[A. G. Maisey]

Very well David, its a flight of fancy.

Can you explain how the presence of the greneng on the keris assisted in assertion of authority over a portion of the a realm?

Especially when Sunda was virtually ignored in the Majapahit literature.

If we wish to make the greneng a geographical representation of something, we need to look at geography from the perspective of a lord of Old Jawa.

I don't think we can use this map theory. This is just not a reflection of Javanese thought of that period.

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

.........
G'day Bram. Can I call you Bram, or Pak Bram, or Pak Kiai? Which would you prefer?

Howabout if I just call you Bram, and you can call me Alan? Lets drop the formalities.

If you like, Alan... I am interested in commenting on the mention of Ajisaka. Who was and why Ajisaka? My intuition is that Ajisaka is the personification of "the knowledge of the pillar(s)" similar to current Freemasonry, and is concerned with creating a just and peacful society.

Sorry to wander off the thread.

As for the greneng representing a map, well, old Jawa kings didn't seem to like or need maps much. They often did not have borders on the ground, and they considered owning people more important than territory.

One thing we must consider when thinking about how things became widely used, is the influence of charisma. If a God-King wants a greneng, all his subjects might want one too. When Panembahan Senapati died at his funeral cigarettes were served and from that day Jawa men smoked, court poets noted. So the use of greneng might be like that too, one day a King used it and the next day everyone wanted one. Why? Because of charisma.

Just my opinion...

Salam hangat,
Bram

[A. G. Maisey]

Aji Saka.
Bram, those two words are loaded.
Yes, we can extract "pillar of knowledge" from them, but we can extract other possibilities as well.
What we extract can depend upon what language the words were first used in. Did this legend originate when Old Javanese was in general use, or after Modern Javanese came into general usage?
We can extract "king" from "aji".
We can also extract "kaji" from "aji"---this is a known variation.
Saka?
Again the word can be interpreted in several ways.
However, "pillar of knowledge" is workable, and it could well have been intended in that way.
Possibly when it was first used the story-teller was playing with ideas that would be generated in the minds of his audience by a combination of sounds, and the supporting story. Pillar of knowledge could be used to generate the idea of knowledge coming from The Haj, by the unspoken reference to "kaji". The ideas of "king", and "pillar" could be interchangeable
There are a number of possibilities, my personal feeling is that this legend was born after Islamic penetration of Jawa and was perhaps used in propaganda. I don't like the parallel with Freemasonry much. I cannot see such a thing being a part of the supportive fabric, moreover, it is stretching belief just a little too far, but I have no doubt that the story was used as a teaching medium. You yourself know that these legends were not just for light amusement. They were not 15th century versions of TV soap operas.The story tellers in Javanese society were an informal----and perhaps sometimes a formal---mechanism of societal control.

The greneng flowing from imitation of royal preference?
Undoubtedly.
This would have come from the top, no doubt about that, but why?
And was it a personal royal preference, or by royal dictate?
Was it personalised to the ruler, or was it at the direction of the ruler, and in any case----why?

[Emanuel]

Greetings,

I have very little knowledge of keris, but I am able to look at it from a design point of view. The greneng seems to me like a fairly complex feature. Shaping the edge of an object in the form of letters is an involved thought process; one has to identify the possibility to shape the edge in an unconventional manner and then realize that a specific contour of that edge may be read as meaningful letters.

I have worked as a graphic designer, I aspired to become an architect, and I am currently following an urban planning profession, and in all of these I have always had a design process. To get to design E I have to go through A, B, C, D first. To get to a legible ron dha on the "tail" end of the ganja, I feel that a designer had to go through a number of illegible steps. I imagine that at first there was no greneng, no ron dha. Then there arose a deformation of the edge of the "tail" area, something uncommon. It may have been a physical need to stop an opponent's blade, or it may have been something else, possibly even accidental damage. My point is that designers realized that the edge deformation was pleasing or useful and could be shaped in a meaningful way, eventually to become the contour of letters, and eventually to acquire a mystical meaning. This must have happened in time and involving considerable trial and error.

I guess this is what David's initial question referred to; what was that initial deformation of the tail edge that prompted the design process that lead to a legible or meaningful greneng.

These are my thoughts and I have no way to support them.

Thank you all for a fascinating discourse.
Emanuel

[Boedhi Adhitya]

Thank you, Manolo, for your suggestion on the 'designing' aspect. There is, actually, a 'pre-formed' greneng called 'greneng wurung'. Wurung or durung means 'belum' in Bahasa and literally means 'not yet', 'unfinished'. In this case, it could be translated as 'unperfect greneng'. But this kind of greneng has it's own problems. It is very possible that this forms were caused by the worn-out blade. This form also, very likely, to be found on the lower quality blades. Thus, incapability of the maker should be taken account. But it is quite tempting to think that the greneng wurung is the predecessor of the full-shaped greneng.

David, as you suggest that we should find the cause in Hindu cultures, why don't you consider the kukri's cho ? This notch in the lower part of kukri has similar form with greneng/ ron dha, and it also has symbolic meaning(s) and 'lack of functionality' as a tool/weapon.

http://www.himalayan-imports.com/khukuri-history.html

Please note while I'm suggesting some relations between cho and greneng, I keep my opinion neutral regarding this relationship