sucker for African sickles

Emanuel · 8th November 2007, 07:46 PM

I am still waiting to receive my first shotel, but I've always had the impression that shotel are double-edged - is that correct? If so, then what would stop them being used like shamshir?

Regards,
Emanuel

Luc LEFEBVRE · 11th November 2007, 10:17 PM

Nice exemples Tim, I had one but I don't kept it.
I have these sickled weapons :
Luc

Luc LEFEBVRE · 11th November 2007, 10:18 PM

The one I had.
Luc

Jim McDougall · 19th November 2007, 02:57 AM

Fernando and Tim, thank you so much for answering my question, and I apologize for missing your answers. I somehow overlooked this thread while involved elsewhere and I try to avoid letting that happen. The reason I was curious is that I had one of these also, and seem to recall Congo regions noted with it but could not recall.

It does seem that 19th century collectors did tend to apply practical manners of use according to presumption by the shape of blades etc. without actually seeing them used, especially with the 'throwing knives' for example. On the shotel, the severe tip on the deeply curves examples does seem likely to have had purpose for reaching over shields in downward stroke, as well of course for hooking and slashing...but as Roanoa has noted, such movement would leave the weapon holder wide open, so without having 'been there' in the battles....predictable assumption.

As Roanoa has noted, and as we are discussing on a concurrent thread, shotels seem to have had certain range in the curvatures...hopefully others interested in these might add to the Abyssinian shotel thread

Very nice example of this type Tim, thanks for showing the interesting geometrics on the blade, and nice grouping you have shown Luc!!

Any thoughts on that opening at the base of the blade at the hilt?

All the best,
Jim

fearn · 21st November 2007, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

--snip--

It does seem that 19th century collectors did tend to apply practical manners of use according to presumption by the shape of blades etc. without actually seeing them used, especially with the 'throwing knives' for example. On the shotel, the severe tip on the deeply curves examples does seem likely to have had purpose for reaching over shields in downward stroke, as well of course for hooking and slashing...but as Roanoa has noted, such movement would leave the weapon holder wide open, so without having 'been there' in the battles....predictable assumption.

--snip--

All the best,
Jim

Just wanted to respond to the shotel question. There is an interesting essay by Hank Reinhardt on shotel use. The relevant paragraphs are quoted below:

"Wooden swords edged with shark's teeth, draw cuts, pulling cuts, slashes -- all of these are understandable, but there has always been one type of sword and fighting technique that fills me with . . . well, I'm not sure what. You decide: The Abyssinian shotel is a long curved double-edged sword. At first glance, it looks like a Near Eastern scimitar, but on closer inspection you realize that the curve is a full half circle. And it is, I repeat, double-edged. The blade, generally, is a flattened, diamond cross section and quite stiff.

The natives fight with these swords from behind large, circular leather shields. Rather than try to cut through the shield, or feint it out of the way, they reach around it to hook their opponent with the point of the sword. I think you can image what a strange type of combat it must be. Many years ago, when the movie theaters had shorts subjects, I saw a travelogue that briefly showed two Abyssinians "fencing" with sword and shield. They hoped and ducked and bounced all around, with the long curved swords moving in very awkward ways. Really strange.

When you handle a shotel you realize that it isn't very effective for slicing, nor slashing, and certainly not built for thrusting, but it is pretty good for hooking, and that is how it should be judged." (source: There is no best sword)

He seems to be saying that he actually saw the shotel used around a shield. Weird but true, and contrary to what Roanoa was saying. We really need someone with experience using it to speak up.

My 0.02 cents,

F

Jim McDougall · 22nd November 2007, 04:00 AM

Very, very well said Fearn!

roanoa · 22nd November 2007, 11:00 PM

OK, guys. I do not want to argue with people who seem to know more than I do. What I am saying is simply this: I have handled probably 50 shotels. Only two had a "full" (??) curve. The others had a curvature that varied from curved to almost straight. I have seen LOTS of swords (including British) that have a much more dramatic curvature than most shotels. Nothing would prevent these swords from being used as a shotel (i.e. reach around the shield....). And most likely that's how someone may have used it. Especially if he was performing a dance in front of a camera. Last words: get a shield and a shotel and try it yourself!!!

11th November 2007, 10:17 PM	#2
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	Nice exemples Tim, I had one but I don't kept it. I have these sickled weapons : Luc Attached Images

11th November 2007, 10:18 PM	#3
Luc LEFEBVRE Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: France Posts: 473	The one I had. Luc Attached Images

8th November 2007, 07:46 PM	#1
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I am still waiting to receive my first shotel, but I've always had the impression that shotel are double-edged - is that correct? If so, then what would stop them being used like shamshir? Regards, Emanuel

19th November 2007, 02:57 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	Fernando and Tim, thank you so much for answering my question, and I apologize for missing your answers. I somehow overlooked this thread while involved elsewhere and I try to avoid letting that happen. The reason I was curious is that I had one of these also, and seem to recall Congo regions noted with it but could not recall. It does seem that 19th century collectors did tend to apply practical manners of use according to presumption by the shape of blades etc. without actually seeing them used, especially with the 'throwing knives' for example. On the shotel, the severe tip on the deeply curves examples does seem likely to have had purpose for reaching over shields in downward stroke, as well of course for hooking and slashing...but as Roanoa has noted, such movement would leave the weapon holder wide open, so without having 'been there' in the battles....predictable assumption. As Roanoa has noted, and as we are discussing on a concurrent thread, shotels seem to have had certain range in the curvatures...hopefully others interested in these might add to the Abyssinian shotel thread Very nice example of this type Tim, thanks for showing the interesting geometrics on the blade, and nice grouping you have shown Luc!! Any thoughts on that opening at the base of the blade at the hilt? All the best, Jim

22nd November 2007, 04:00 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,467	Very, very well said Fearn!

22nd November 2007, 11:00 PM	#7
roanoa Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 241	OK, guys. I do not want to argue with people who seem to know more than I do. What I am saying is simply this: I have handled probably 50 shotels. Only two had a "full" (??) curve. The others had a curvature that varied from curved to almost straight. I have seen LOTS of swords (including British) that have a much more dramatic curvature than most shotels. Nothing would prevent these swords from being used as a shotel (i.e. reach around the shield....). And most likely that's how someone may have used it. Especially if he was performing a dance in front of a camera. Last words: get a shield and a shotel and try it yourself!!!