Greneng

Gavin Nugent · 7th November 2007, 10:12 PM

Yep, I go off on a tangent sometimes and think too much but I think there is a thesis there for either myself or someone who wants to get the jump on me with further research, heck maybe someone wants to help me with it and get an honouree doctorate

Gav

PS I think I had a moment of madness and dropped the "r" from the Grenang to get Genang, though there still maybe be some validity to these mad thoughts

t_c · 8th November 2007, 07:06 AM

I agree with you DrD about #1 and #2. If you will indulge a little speculation: judging from how the keris is held, I would surmise that the intention was to simply keep the hand from slipping down the blade on a thrust if one's grip slipped. I think it would feel better to put solid pressure on the hand there than at the fingers. It would also make sense that it would protect the users hand when parring an opponents weapon with the blade (assuming this was a strategy with a keris), the decoration acting as a "sword catcher" in the sense that a blade couldn't skip or slide past that area and onto the forearm, but I can't see getting enough leverage out of it to disarm or catch a blade though.

Tom

PenangsangII · 9th November 2007, 11:10 AM

I would say no. 3 - the signature of an empu that can be translated these days as marketing ploy. I am quite sceptical about sword catcher theory as according to Malay keris fighting tradition, keris is not to be parried against another keris or other edged weapon for that matter.

drdavid · 9th November 2007, 09:02 PM

Some excellent ideas here gentlemen. t_c having grasped a few of my keris in response to your answer I think it is very sound and suspect that stopping your hand sliding down onto the blade is a very practical 'form follows function' explanation...and perhaps that the idea of preventing slip was then extrapolated into the more exciting and gory theory of diverting blood to prevent slip. The carvings of the greneng could deflect or turn an attacking blade slightly I'm sure but like you I really doubt that could be used to catch a blade or twist it from the attackers hand.
Freebooter your map of the archipeligo theory is very very interesting indeed, and bears more thinking about.
Penangsang II thanks for the insight on fighting tradition, I have not found much information in the texts on how these were used in their heyday (I respect the fact that there are martial artists who have developed a method of combat using keris in the modern era but we dont really know that that was the original method). I have been told that the keris was used commonly as a weapon of stealth, a quick thrust before the victim knew what was coming and then the attacker was away. If that was the usage then the need for building an elaborate defence strategy into the keris would be minimal.
drd

kronckew · 10th November 2007, 08:53 AM

just to mix the batch a bit, the moro kris has a similar construction, (possibly the overall design was already 'locked' from it's indonesian roots by the time it evolved into the moro version?), though used for the cut rather than the thrust, and other moro weapons designed for the cut may or may not have a guard capable of preventing such slippage even though the blade is capable of such.

the grips on most malay/indonesian keris i've seen (tho not all) are more like a push dagger where the grip itself would prevent sliding down the blade even without a guard, also ensuring the weapon cannot slide out of your hand in the opposite direction, and even guardless filipino weapons tend to have a bulbous, or hooked pommel end to prevent that slippage away from the blade even if there is no guard preventing slippage towards it...

scandinavian knives traditionally have a guardless form, a child is given a knife with a guard however, and a sign of his coming of age is when he learns how to use a knife without one even under slippery conditions cleaning game or fish, or the occasional human.

spanish knives, khyber knives, choora, canary knives, gaucho knives all solve the sliding on thrust problem by having an offset grip in line with the spine, with the swell in the blade below the grip preventing the hand and fingers from sliding forward, and most people i've heard discussing those also indicate it offers some ability to deflect an incoming attack and protect the fingers if not the whole forearm...

the decorative notch near the grip (kaudi or cho) of a kukhri has also been described by some as a blood deflector, sword catcher, etc. but the main conclusions about it's purpose and origins are that no one really knows. a kukhri is not really one without it tho. the same goes for the kris, which is incomplete without the ganja/greneng.

David · 10th November 2007, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drdavid

Some excellent ideas here gentlemen. t_c having grasped a few of my keris in response to your answer I think it is very sound and suspect that stopping your hand sliding down onto the blade is a very practical 'form follows function' explanation...

This might explain the function of gonjo itself, but not the greneng per se.

drdavid · 11th November 2007, 01:24 AM

You are absolutely correct David, the slippage bit is gonjo function not greneng function.
Perhaps if I might ask another question of those with greater historical understanding, when did the highly stylised greneg first appear? Is it apparent early in the post keris buda era or is it a significantly later arrival? Understanding this may give some clues.
DrD

A. G. Maisey · 11th November 2007, 06:45 AM

This matter of how, when , where, and why the greneng first appeared on the keris is one of the really big, and really important questions of keris development. There can be no doubt that in the material culture of humanity form does follow function. A need arises, and the object is created to satisfy this need.

In the case of function following form, the object already exists, and is adapted to a new function; examples of function following form would be the back of an axe used to drive nails, the side of a knife used to crush garlic, a motor vehicle used as a weapon. The axe was made to chop wood, the knife to cut something, the motor vehicle as a means of transport, but human ingenuity adapted these things and turned other of their qualities to a different purpose, a purpose for which they had not originally been designed.

If we can accept that a thing comes into existence to satisfy a need, then the first question we must ask in respect of the greneng on the keris is what was the need for this feature?

Before we can answer this we must ask what was the function of the keris at the time when the greneng first appeared. If form follows function then we need to know the function of the keris and why this particular form of the keris was necessary, at the time when it first began to appear.

We know beyond any doubt that in its initial form the keris was primarily a weapon, however, over an extended period of time this weapon developed into forms that differed from its original form, and during this period of development it also acquired characteristics and a nature which perhaps were not attached to its original form.In simple terms, the nature of the keris varies, depending upon the time and place where it is found.

I would like to suggest that the keris in Jawa, at the time when the greneng first appeared, may have already commenced its development as a symbol of the male element, and a cultural icon. As such, its function was more than that of just a simple weapon. Thus it follows that the function of all of its parts was also more than the function of elements of weaponry.

The question that follows from this is:- when did the greneng first appear?

The simple answer is that we do not know with any certainty.

However, it does seem reasonable to assume that the incorporation of the greneng into keris design occurred after the beginning of the 14th century, and as a part of the development of the archaic form of the keris, into the modern form of the keris.

The keris is quite different to any other weapon of which I have knowledge:- it is first and foremost a weapon, but in some applications it has a nature that is the essence of the indigenous culture of the Jawa/Bali nexus. As a weapon it has the nature of a destroyer, but as the pusaka keris it also has the nature of a binding element that can bring together the disparate elements of a kin group, or of a kingdom. Thus it embodies the duality that is at the core of this culture. Above all, it is the symbol of the male element in both the small world in which we live, and within the entirety of creation.

Because of the complex nature of the keris, we cannot look for one dimensional answers.

I am of the opinion that the greneng, and its integral parts, were added to the keris to satisfy a percieved need associated with its function as something other than a weapon.

So yes, form does follow function, but the function of the keris at the time the greneng was added to it had already begun to move from that of a simple weapon.

10th November 2007, 08:53 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,216	just to mix the batch a bit, the moro kris has a similar construction, (possibly the overall design was already 'locked' from it's indonesian roots by the time it evolved into the moro version?), though used for the cut rather than the thrust, and other moro weapons designed for the cut may or may not have a guard capable of preventing such slippage even though the blade is capable of such. the grips on most malay/indonesian keris i've seen (tho not all) are more like a push dagger where the grip itself would prevent sliding down the blade even without a guard, also ensuring the weapon cannot slide out of your hand in the opposite direction, and even guardless filipino weapons tend to have a bulbous, or hooked pommel end to prevent that slippage away from the blade even if there is no guard preventing slippage towards it... scandinavian knives traditionally have a guardless form, a child is given a knife with a guard however, and a sign of his coming of age is when he learns how to use a knife without one even under slippery conditions cleaning game or fish, or the occasional human. spanish knives, khyber knives, choora, canary knives, gaucho knives all solve the sliding on thrust problem by having an offset grip in line with the spine, with the swell in the blade below the grip preventing the hand and fingers from sliding forward, and most people i've heard discussing those also indicate it offers some ability to deflect an incoming attack and protect the fingers if not the whole forearm... the decorative notch near the grip (kaudi or cho) of a kukhri has also been described by some as a blood deflector, sword catcher, etc. but the main conclusions about it's purpose and origins are that no one really knows. a kukhri is not really one without it tho. the same goes for the kris, which is incomplete without the ganja/greneng. Last edited by kronckew; 10th November 2007 at 09:24 AM.

7th November 2007, 10:12 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thanks Yep, I go off on a tangent sometimes and think too much but I think there is a thesis there for either myself or someone who wants to get the jump on me with further research, heck maybe someone wants to help me with it and get an honouree doctorate Gav PS I think I had a moment of madness and dropped the "r" from the Grenang to get Genang, though there still maybe be some validity to these mad thoughts Last edited by freebooter; 8th November 2007 at 04:46 AM.

8th November 2007, 07:06 AM	#2
t_c Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: ca, usa Posts: 92	I agree with you DrD about #1 and #2. If you will indulge a little speculation: judging from how the keris is held, I would surmise that the intention was to simply keep the hand from slipping down the blade on a thrust if one's grip slipped. I think it would feel better to put solid pressure on the hand there than at the fingers. It would also make sense that it would protect the users hand when parring an opponents weapon with the blade (assuming this was a strategy with a keris), the decoration acting as a "sword catcher" in the sense that a blade couldn't skip or slide past that area and onto the forearm, but I can't see getting enough leverage out of it to disarm or catch a blade though. Tom

9th November 2007, 11:10 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I would say no. 3 - the signature of an empu that can be translated these days as marketing ploy. I am quite sceptical about sword catcher theory as according to Malay keris fighting tradition, keris is not to be parried against another keris or other edged weapon for that matter.

9th November 2007, 09:02 PM	#4
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	Some excellent ideas here gentlemen. t_c having grasped a few of my keris in response to your answer I think it is very sound and suspect that stopping your hand sliding down onto the blade is a very practical 'form follows function' explanation...and perhaps that the idea of preventing slip was then extrapolated into the more exciting and gory theory of diverting blood to prevent slip. The carvings of the greneng could deflect or turn an attacking blade slightly I'm sure but like you I really doubt that could be used to catch a blade or twist it from the attackers hand. Freebooter your map of the archipeligo theory is very very interesting indeed, and bears more thinking about. Penangsang II thanks for the insight on fighting tradition, I have not found much information in the texts on how these were used in their heyday (I respect the fact that there are martial artists who have developed a method of combat using keris in the modern era but we dont really know that that was the original method). I have been told that the keris was used commonly as a weapon of stealth, a quick thrust before the victim knew what was coming and then the attacker was away. If that was the usage then the need for building an elaborate defence strategy into the keris would be minimal. drd

11th November 2007, 01:24 AM	#7
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 372	You are absolutely correct David, the slippage bit is gonjo function not greneng function. Perhaps if I might ask another question of those with greater historical understanding, when did the highly stylised greneg first appear? Is it apparent early in the post keris buda era or is it a significantly later arrival? Understanding this may give some clues. DrD

11th November 2007, 06:45 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	This matter of how, when , where, and why the greneng first appeared on the keris is one of the really big, and really important questions of keris development. There can be no doubt that in the material culture of humanity form does follow function. A need arises, and the object is created to satisfy this need. In the case of function following form, the object already exists, and is adapted to a new function; examples of function following form would be the back of an axe used to drive nails, the side of a knife used to crush garlic, a motor vehicle used as a weapon. The axe was made to chop wood, the knife to cut something, the motor vehicle as a means of transport, but human ingenuity adapted these things and turned other of their qualities to a different purpose, a purpose for which they had not originally been designed. If we can accept that a thing comes into existence to satisfy a need, then the first question we must ask in respect of the greneng on the keris is what was the need for this feature? Before we can answer this we must ask what was the function of the keris at the time when the greneng first appeared. If form follows function then we need to know the function of the keris and why this particular form of the keris was necessary, at the time when it first began to appear. We know beyond any doubt that in its initial form the keris was primarily a weapon, however, over an extended period of time this weapon developed into forms that differed from its original form, and during this period of development it also acquired characteristics and a nature which perhaps were not attached to its original form.In simple terms, the nature of the keris varies, depending upon the time and place where it is found. I would like to suggest that the keris in Jawa, at the time when the greneng first appeared, may have already commenced its development as a symbol of the male element, and a cultural icon. As such, its function was more than that of just a simple weapon. Thus it follows that the function of all of its parts was also more than the function of elements of weaponry. The question that follows from this is:- when did the greneng first appear? The simple answer is that we do not know with any certainty. However, it does seem reasonable to assume that the incorporation of the greneng into keris design occurred after the beginning of the 14th century, and as a part of the development of the archaic form of the keris, into the modern form of the keris. The keris is quite different to any other weapon of which I have knowledge:- it is first and foremost a weapon, but in some applications it has a nature that is the essence of the indigenous culture of the Jawa/Bali nexus. As a weapon it has the nature of a destroyer, but as the pusaka keris it also has the nature of a binding element that can bring together the disparate elements of a kin group, or of a kingdom. Thus it embodies the duality that is at the core of this culture. Above all, it is the symbol of the male element in both the small world in which we live, and within the entirety of creation. Because of the complex nature of the keris, we cannot look for one dimensional answers. I am of the opinion that the greneng, and its integral parts, were added to the keris to satisfy a percieved need associated with its function as something other than a weapon. So yes, form does follow function, but the function of the keris at the time the greneng was added to it had already begun to move from that of a simple weapon.