Scottish Dirk from Anne

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by David

I nice and interesting knife that you obviously have very good provenence on, but is it reall a "dirk". It certainly doesn't follow the form i am familar with or what is shown in the evolution of the dirk on this website:
http://www.myarmoury.com/feature_spot_dirks.html

Good "point" as Battera would say.

You are certainly correct, the dirks do have a different blade. I looked at your link and can see that, so should we just call it a "dagger?" Or something else?

[Ferguson]

A knife maybe? Perchance a bolo, or a sundang?

A knife by any other name would look as sweet.

Either way, a sweet piece!

steve

[Jim McDougall]

Very handsome Scottish knife, especially in that it is nicely marked.....having the maker established in that period a definite plus!
These small knives that were often carried in the stocking were typically called skean dubh ,which loosely translated from Gaelic meant dark or black knife, not that they were necessarily black. The dirks were of course much larger and often crafted from baskethilt blades.
Nicely done Anne!! You're a lucky guy Bill!!! on both counts
All the best,
Jim

[David]

Jim, you might be right, sgian dubh might be the right name here, but without demensions i was a little uncertain about the actual size of this knife. How big is it Bill? (the knife i mean )

[kronckew]

bill, looks familiar somehow still looks nice.

for the rest of y'all for reference, here's one i posted earlier that appears to be made out of the tip of a sword blade whose age/provenance i do not know, also with knobbly stag, and it's little 5in bladed great grandson skian dubh with a guard.

[David]

Originally Posted by kronckew

bill, looks familiar somehow still looks nice.

for the rest of y'all for reference, here's one i posted earlier that appears to be made out of the tip of a sword blade whose age/provenance i do not know, also with knobbly stag, and it's little 5in bladed great grandson skian dubh with a guard.

When you say 5" are you referring to overall or just the blade.A 5" blade would seem a bit excessive for a sgian dubh.

[lemmythesmith]

Hi all, here's my sghian dubh, made this a couple of years ago, it's my work knife now. Damascus blade, shagreen scabbard, bog oak hilt with brass fittings and Iona marble. I think your sghian dubh is a "daytime wear" piece Bill, antler hilted blades were worn during the day, more elaborate pieces were for formal occasions (that antler hilt is awesome!) I'm of Maclean descent myself...

[Jim McDougall]

Amazing set there Kronckew! The upper one looks like a Scottish shashka!!
OK OK I know, a guy could get kilt for cracks like that!! Just kidding.
Usually I dont get that goofy unless I've had a respectable bit of Drambuie,as in the incident several years ago that led to the unfortunate tulwar waving incident. This event took out the ceiling fan in my den!

Seriously though, I agree with David on the size of the sgian dubh, as most of these were 3-4 " , but later examples, who knows. The antler hilted knife really is attractive, and unusual. It was quite common to utilize broken basket hilt blades to fashion many of these, and these items together comprise the 'gralloch' set for hunting use in butchering and skinning.

Its great to see Scottish weapons posted, they dont come up too often here, although they indeed are within the ethnographic scope.

I always thought the spelling on these was interesting, Dubh = black or dark.
When working on my family geneology I discovered that the correct Gaelic spelling of my name was MacDhubghaill. I decided to leave it like it is obviously....people have enough trouble pronouncing it as it is!!

All best regards,
Jim

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by David

When you say 5" are you referring to overall or just the blade.A 5" blade would seem a bit excessive for a sgian dubh.

the blade is 4.75" & 1.25 wide at the guard, it's only 1/8 in. or so thick but the back is nicely file worked in lines and scallops for 4in. down the spine like a lot of skean dubh & scots weaponry, the last 3/4 in. is double edged. the grip is 4.375", it has an oval guard 1.5x0.75x.125 there is a circular non-magnetic white metal pommel inset into the end of the stag. the blade appears to be hardened stainless steel in that there is no sign of any corrosion or patina, same on the guard & bolster, my magnet is strongly attracted to them tho. i do not think there is any age to this knife. i used the term skean dubh a bit tongue in cheek as it is a bit big tho i've seen 5in. skean dubh blades from custom makers, they probably are normally around 3.5 in., and the guard is not a feature of the black knives i've seen. i still like it tho. i think it's a skean, the dubh part is unlikely .

the longer one is fairly basic, the spine is essentially straight tho the last 4in. or so depart upwards about an eighth of an inch to give a slight overall curvature, there is a slight swelling of the blade thickness just as it enters the stag. i am not sure what kind of tang it has bit the end of the grip has a small peened steel pin that may be the end of the tang. the blade is 17.25in. long, grip just under 3.5in. and blade is 15/16in. wide at the grip, & about 3/16in thick (roughly 5mm) & is quite springy, distally tapering down, the last 4-5 in. has a false edge on the spine.. the fullers are forged in, not ground. scabbard did not survive unfortunately.

[rand]

Hey Bill,

The Scottish arms have always been a favorite of mine...... Your birthday present dagger has a great mark of "Mclay" stamped on the blade that adds so much character and history to a knife. The off-set handle was a good point to mention as it does improve the comfort of carrying in different manners. The color of the stag horn handle is also appealing as its showing its color change with time. Enjoy your new dagger.....

What is "shear steel"?

rand

[asomotif]

Bill,

I will surely show this thread to my wife, X-mas comming in sight real soon

As for the use of the knife. The shape looks nice for cutting small vegetables, but it probably needs some sharpening which I am not in favour of.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by David

Jim, you might be right, sgian dubh might be the right name here, but without dimensions i was a little uncertain about the actual size of this knife. How big is it Bill? (the knife i mean )

Yark, yark! (dry laugh, don't try to translate from some obscure language)

The knife is about 7" long

Thanks for all the great replies. I have learned a lot from all, but Particularly from Alan and Spiral.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jeff!!
Thats amazing! I had never heard of that particular reference to Scythians and Scots, and perhaps Kronckew's comment on the Celtic association may concur with that intriguing anthropology. I cant believe the amazing references you seem to have command of!!! Outstanding!

I was of course kidding with the shashka note, and absolutely delighted with this very fascinating information you have brought in! Hey, maybe this Drambuie stuff really works!! .....but now you've really triggered it, and I'll be the one not sleeping I thought I had finished the old MacDhubghaill geneology but looks like theres a whole new dimension.

Thanks so much Jeff!

Bill,
I've learned a lot on this thread too, especially with Jeff's note on an aside from the knife itself and Kronkews addition, and as you note with Spirals great note on sheared steel. Alan's comments are as always extremely well placed and insightful, and I especially appreciate his attention to my questions on dudgeon and boxwood. In all, great input from everyone on the thread, and again, I'm really glad that you shared this interesting example to initiate this thread!! Thank you very much.

All best regards,
Jim