Bambang Harsrinuksmo

Raden Usman Djogja · 30th October 2007, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, i see nothing "brilliant" about a keris certificate. Opinions on keris are so subjective at times. One "experts" opinion can sometimes vary greatly from another. I find the certificates issued to be fairly useless except as a selling ploy to the uneducated. No matter how "objective" you believe Bambang was in this process it was still only an opinion.

Yes David, it is useless if we stay in themodern finacial market which most of aspects protected by system and law. However, in the keris world, sometiems people must deal with low moral traders.

For instance, in my hometown, when I pretended as a debutant in Keris (actaully I am still a debutant till the end of the day

), the trader told me that he was a member of a prominent keris club in my town. Moreover, his keris has been evaluated by his colleagues and classified as a high quality treasure. Then, as expected, finally he opened the price which almost higher than the sky

As I remembered, I hd not ever met him in the club.

So, by written analysis, low moral traders will think twice whenever they want to claim that theirs have been evaluated by Mr. so and so.

Most probably, most of keris lovers here have ever faced a bad experience called as "KEBLONDROK", havent they?

warm regards,

Usmen

Raden Usman Djogja · 30th October 2007, 05:11 PM

David,

I am sorry not translating "keblondrok" in English. I dont know the proper translation of it. Keblondrok is the situation that somebody pay much more effort than he should. Oh.. no.. no.. I dont know how to express keblondrok. It is a funy word.

warm salam,
Usmen

David · 30th October 2007, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

David,

I am sorry not translating "keblondrok" in English. I dont know the proper translation of it. Keblondrok is the situation that somebody pay much more effort than he should. Oh.. no.. no.. I dont know how to express keblondrok. It is a funy word.

warm salam,
Usmen

Thanks for the effort Usmen. I think i get what you mean.

But it also seems to me that once someone has gotten a hold of a genuine certificate it would be very easily counterfeited. Even if experienced keris collectors could tell the difference the beginner would still be easily fooled by the fake piece of paper. The experienced keris collector shouldn't need the paper to judge the quality of the keris, his experience should tell him. And as i already pointed out, even when the certificate is genuine it is still only one persons opinion as to tangguh and quality. Even if that person is well respected they could still be wrong in their evaluation. This paper has no real definitive value. When dealing with a "low moral trader" one must simply look at the keris in question, not the seller or any document he claims to hold about the keris. If you don't know enough about keris to be able to judge if the one presented to you is worth the asking price how would you be educated enough to know if the certificate presented with it is real or not. Sorry, It seems to me that keris certificates only open up the keris world to even more means of deception than already exists.

A. G. Maisey · 30th October 2007, 11:55 PM

I had intended to stay out of this thread, however, I think the "certificate" thing does need a comment.

In respect of Bambang Harsinuksmo, I did not know the man personally, I consider that overall his work has been a valuable addition to keris literature, but I would comment that any person can appear in a different light to other people. If we obtain the opinions of a number of people about any one of us, those opinions can be very varied.

Since Bapak Bambang Harsrinuksmo has now moved on to the common destination of us all, I do feel it would be fitting if both positive and negative comment in respect of this gentleman were to be terminated.

However, about certificates.

I do not know when this practice started in Jawa, but I do know that Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo was providing certificates in 1982, and that as long as I knew him, Empu Suparman was also providing certificates.

Yes, an opinion on a tangguh is just that:- an opinion, but an opinion by a respected authority carries infinitely more weight than an opinion by somebody with little knowledge.

This is an exactly similar situation to an appraisal by a jeweller, or by an art expert. The jeweller will describe and classify the stone, and perhaps provide a market valuation. The expert in any field of art will do the same thing.

Take something more mundane:- the purchase of a secondhand car.
How many of us feel confident just to rely on the salesman's words of wisdom? Don't we want our mechanic to have a look at the vehicle? Maybe we even ask him for a written report. Same thing:- we get an expert opinion before we shell out the dinero.

So, when somebody in Jawa takes a keris along to an ahli keris for an opinion, you have in most cases a situation where the keris has been offered for sale, and the potential buyer wishes to gain an expert opinion before he pays out any money.Naturally the buyer wishes to go back to the seller with some evidence that he now has a very good idea of what it is that he is thinking about buying, so he asks for a letter, or a certificate, as evidence that he has obtained an expert opinion.

I have been present on numerous occasions when a potential buyer has asked for a certificate, and I have seen the reverse:- a dealer has purchased a keris that he thinks is something, but he is uncertain, so he has brought that keris to a recognised expert for an opinion.

Do not forget:- one of the functions of the keris is as a store of wealth. As is the case with any commodity regarded as a store of wealth, there must be an agreed way to determine the value of the commodity. In Jawa, the commonly accepted way of doing this is by obtaining the opinion of a recognised ahli keris. The certificate is simply evidence that the opinion has been given.

A collector, or even a dealer, can only rely upon his own knowledge to a limited extent, and within the bounds of his experience. Very often a collector simply does not have the necessary knowledge to form an adequate opinion, and the same can be true to a lesser extent with a dealer. The very best ahli keris have always been elderly men with a background in dealing, making, and repair of keris. During their lives they could well have handled tens of thousands of keris. No collector can ever hope to come anywhere near the experience of one of these men.

Now, there is another side to this, and it is most definitely corrupt.

There are a number of people who have some recognition within certain groups and sub-groups who will provide certificates to order and for payment.

I am not prepared to comment further in respect of this, but I will say that when a keris is offered for sale with a certificate, and the person who has signed that certificate is not known to the buyer as an honourable and knowledgeable man, then it might be as well to disregard the certificate. In other words, to evaluate the worth of a certificate, one needs to have an intimate knowledge of the keris world in Jawa, and to know the level of knowledge and acceptance within the keris community of the person providing the certificate.

Keris certificates are as reliable as the person who provides them.

John · 31st October 2007, 07:08 AM

Alan, some great points you've made on certifications and fair.
Respectfully.

ganjawulung · 31st October 2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Keris certificates are as reliable as the person who provides them.

Dear Alan,

Thanks a lot for your wise response, on Mr Bambang and keris certification. I think I must agree with you, and I found a lot of useful thing from your explanation. Once again, thank you for your response..

On certification, I know that there was a kind of "tradition" on certificating in the past. The formal name in kraton term as "serat kekancingan", or a kind of letter of carification on pusakas in kraton. Usually, written in javanese scripture. Such letter usually mentions the characteristics of the keris such dapur, tangguh and the name. Of course, the format of certificate is varied and not all pusakas in kraton have such kekancingan. And of course, not with photo or picture of the pusaka. Whether such certificate is useless or not, it is another matter.

The people who have authority in issuing such certificate, called as "paniti kadga" (maybe it can be translated as: keris or royal pusaka expert). And usually, people with authority of paniti kadga is "abdi dalem reksa pusaka" (kraton servant or kraton employe which have duty of caring the kraton pusaka). But not all the abdi dalem reksa pusaka is paniti kadga. On manipulation, since we deal with human being, manipulation will of course have possibility to happen.

The living paniti kadga, in kraton Surakarta (Solo) now -- as far as I know, is Mr Sukad. Or we used to call him, Pak Bei Sukad. At least, he was paniti kadga during the late Paku Buwana XII.

Another "serat kekancingan" is for human being, for people who have blood relation with king in the past. Common people can get this kekancingan, as long as they can prove their blood relation, as long as they can supply written evidence. The people who has authority in issuing such kekancingan, in kraton (Yogyakarta), called abdi dalem kraton, "tepas darah dalem" or more or less means "royal blood officer"... Usually, people with royal blood have such kekancingan. Whether it is useful of not, this is another matter too.

Ganjawulung

David · 31st October 2007, 02:06 PM

Alan, thanks for your perspective on this. My only experience with certificates is that i see them frequently offerred with certain keris being auctioned on eBay. Often enough they are signed by names i am unfamilar with, which is not in any way an indication that the signer is not reputable. Collectors in Jawa might well be very aware of the name. But from my position i have no way of knowing if this piece of paper has any real value or even if it is authentic. Still, i can see how such certificates can be helpful in the right place with the right people.

Raden Usman Djogja · 31st October 2007, 02:08 PM

Pak Ganja & Pak Alan

I heard that normally in Aussie race-horses have ceritificates (both birth dan family tree certicifate). It is different matter whether they can race well or not. Visually, I saw race-horses in Cauldfield much better than carriage-horses in Swanston street when I was in Melbourne.

Based on above example, one question is whether something will be taken care more gently and lovely when it was certificated. If "YES", so certification is useful. If "NOT", it is anothe matter, again

Pak Ganja, to add your information about "certification of blood related to ancient king", perhaps the procedure is simpler now. If somebody does ny have written evidence, he can get a blood certificate as long as he accepts to be sworn by royal blood officer. So far, none claim and request a certificat as the offspring of LION KING... above all KING LION (never ever happened)

rahman · 1st November 2007, 06:14 AM

Like great authors, artists and composers, we know the man from his works. I've never had the pleasure of knowing Pak Bambang personally, but I have great respect for his work, especially Ensiklopedi Keris.

Pak Bambang -- is it possible to share your copy of Orang Biasa? You may wish to get permission from his family, but I think such an autobiography may be a valuable addition to our ol of knowledge. I believe there are many members who share my feelings, and who do understand Bahasa Indonesia.

I am willing to layout the draft and create a pdf version to be shared by all.

30th October 2007, 05:11 PM	#2
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	David, I am sorry not translating "keblondrok" in English. I dont know the proper translation of it. Keblondrok is the situation that somebody pay much more effort than he should. Oh.. no.. no.. I dont know how to express keblondrok. It is a funy word. warm salam, Usmen

30th October 2007, 11:55 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I had intended to stay out of this thread, however, I think the "certificate" thing does need a comment. In respect of Bambang Harsinuksmo, I did not know the man personally, I consider that overall his work has been a valuable addition to keris literature, but I would comment that any person can appear in a different light to other people. If we obtain the opinions of a number of people about any one of us, those opinions can be very varied. Since Bapak Bambang Harsrinuksmo has now moved on to the common destination of us all, I do feel it would be fitting if both positive and negative comment in respect of this gentleman were to be terminated. However, about certificates. I do not know when this practice started in Jawa, but I do know that Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo was providing certificates in 1982, and that as long as I knew him, Empu Suparman was also providing certificates. Yes, an opinion on a tangguh is just that:- an opinion, but an opinion by a respected authority carries infinitely more weight than an opinion by somebody with little knowledge. This is an exactly similar situation to an appraisal by a jeweller, or by an art expert. The jeweller will describe and classify the stone, and perhaps provide a market valuation. The expert in any field of art will do the same thing. Take something more mundane:- the purchase of a secondhand car. How many of us feel confident just to rely on the salesman's words of wisdom? Don't we want our mechanic to have a look at the vehicle? Maybe we even ask him for a written report. Same thing:- we get an expert opinion before we shell out the dinero. So, when somebody in Jawa takes a keris along to an ahli keris for an opinion, you have in most cases a situation where the keris has been offered for sale, and the potential buyer wishes to gain an expert opinion before he pays out any money.Naturally the buyer wishes to go back to the seller with some evidence that he now has a very good idea of what it is that he is thinking about buying, so he asks for a letter, or a certificate, as evidence that he has obtained an expert opinion. I have been present on numerous occasions when a potential buyer has asked for a certificate, and I have seen the reverse:- a dealer has purchased a keris that he thinks is something, but he is uncertain, so he has brought that keris to a recognised expert for an opinion. Do not forget:- one of the functions of the keris is as a store of wealth. As is the case with any commodity regarded as a store of wealth, there must be an agreed way to determine the value of the commodity. In Jawa, the commonly accepted way of doing this is by obtaining the opinion of a recognised ahli keris. The certificate is simply evidence that the opinion has been given. A collector, or even a dealer, can only rely upon his own knowledge to a limited extent, and within the bounds of his experience. Very often a collector simply does not have the necessary knowledge to form an adequate opinion, and the same can be true to a lesser extent with a dealer. The very best ahli keris have always been elderly men with a background in dealing, making, and repair of keris. During their lives they could well have handled tens of thousands of keris. No collector can ever hope to come anywhere near the experience of one of these men. Now, there is another side to this, and it is most definitely corrupt. There are a number of people who have some recognition within certain groups and sub-groups who will provide certificates to order and for payment. I am not prepared to comment further in respect of this, but I will say that when a keris is offered for sale with a certificate, and the person who has signed that certificate is not known to the buyer as an honourable and knowledgeable man, then it might be as well to disregard the certificate. In other words, to evaluate the worth of a certificate, one needs to have an intimate knowledge of the keris world in Jawa, and to know the level of knowledge and acceptance within the keris community of the person providing the certificate. Keris certificates are as reliable as the person who provides them.

31st October 2007, 07:08 AM	#5
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Alan, some great points you've made on certifications and fair. Respectfully.

31st October 2007, 02:06 PM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Alan, thanks for your perspective on this. My only experience with certificates is that i see them frequently offerred with certain keris being auctioned on eBay. Often enough they are signed by names i am unfamilar with, which is not in any way an indication that the signer is not reputable. Collectors in Jawa might well be very aware of the name. But from my position i have no way of knowing if this piece of paper has any real value or even if it is authentic. Still, i can see how such certificates can be helpful in the right place with the right people.

31st October 2007, 02:08 PM	#8
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	Pak Ganja & Pak Alan I heard that normally in Aussie race-horses have ceritificates (both birth dan family tree certicifate). It is different matter whether they can race well or not. Visually, I saw race-horses in Cauldfield much better than carriage-horses in Swanston street when I was in Melbourne. Based on above example, one question is whether something will be taken care more gently and lovely when it was certificated. If "YES", so certification is useful. If "NOT", it is anothe matter, again Pak Ganja, to add your information about "certification of blood related to ancient king", perhaps the procedure is simpler now. If somebody does ny have written evidence, he can get a blood certificate as long as he accepts to be sworn by royal blood officer. So far, none claim and request a certificat as the offspring of LION KING... above all KING LION (never ever happened)

1st November 2007, 06:14 AM	#9
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Like great authors, artists and composers, we know the man from his works. I've never had the pleasure of knowing Pak Bambang personally, but I have great respect for his work, especially Ensiklopedi Keris. Pak Bambang -- is it possible to share your copy of Orang Biasa? You may wish to get permission from his family, but I think such an autobiography may be a valuable addition to our ol of knowledge. I believe there are many members who share my feelings, and who do understand Bahasa Indonesia. I am willing to layout the draft and create a pdf version to be shared by all.