Bambang Harsrinuksmo

John · 27th October 2007, 01:41 PM

Thanks for sharing Ganja. I had the privilege of an email exchange with the Bambang shortly before his passing and I like the man, a gentleman.

ganjawulung · 30th October 2007, 08:57 AM

Dear Marco, John, and All,

About one or two year before he died, Bambang Harsrinuksmo also had a "brilliant idea" of issuing certificate of keris. (This is one example of his certification, please look at this pics): http://www.heritageofjava.com/keris/sertifikat_01.html

Maybe this is the only one "commercial side" in the life of Bambang. But Bambang -- in my opinion -- tried to be objective in certificating kerises. And like as if certificate of "graduation" in schools, it has "identity photo" of the keris itself...

Unfortunately, this certification had stopped as he passed away in 2003.

Ganjawulung

David · 30th October 2007, 02:31 PM

Sorry, i see nothing "brilliant" about a keris certificate. Opinions on keris are so subjective at times. One "experts" opinion can sometimes vary greatly from another. I find the certificates issued to be fairly useless except as a selling ploy to the uneducated. No matter how "objective" you believe Bambang was in this process it was still only an opinion.

Raden Usman Djogja · 30th October 2007, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, i see nothing "brilliant" about a keris certificate. Opinions on keris are so subjective at times. One "experts" opinion can sometimes vary greatly from another. I find the certificates issued to be fairly useless except as a selling ploy to the uneducated. No matter how "objective" you believe Bambang was in this process it was still only an opinion.

Yes David, it is useless if we stay in themodern finacial market which most of aspects protected by system and law. However, in the keris world, sometiems people must deal with low moral traders.

For instance, in my hometown, when I pretended as a debutant in Keris (actaully I am still a debutant till the end of the day

), the trader told me that he was a member of a prominent keris club in my town. Moreover, his keris has been evaluated by his colleagues and classified as a high quality treasure. Then, as expected, finally he opened the price which almost higher than the sky

As I remembered, I hd not ever met him in the club.

So, by written analysis, low moral traders will think twice whenever they want to claim that theirs have been evaluated by Mr. so and so.

Most probably, most of keris lovers here have ever faced a bad experience called as "KEBLONDROK", havent they?

warm regards,

Usmen

Raden Usman Djogja · 30th October 2007, 05:11 PM

David,

I am sorry not translating "keblondrok" in English. I dont know the proper translation of it. Keblondrok is the situation that somebody pay much more effort than he should. Oh.. no.. no.. I dont know how to express keblondrok. It is a funy word.

warm salam,
Usmen

David · 30th October 2007, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raden Usman Djogja

David,

I am sorry not translating "keblondrok" in English. I dont know the proper translation of it. Keblondrok is the situation that somebody pay much more effort than he should. Oh.. no.. no.. I dont know how to express keblondrok. It is a funy word.

warm salam,
Usmen

Thanks for the effort Usmen. I think i get what you mean.

But it also seems to me that once someone has gotten a hold of a genuine certificate it would be very easily counterfeited. Even if experienced keris collectors could tell the difference the beginner would still be easily fooled by the fake piece of paper. The experienced keris collector shouldn't need the paper to judge the quality of the keris, his experience should tell him. And as i already pointed out, even when the certificate is genuine it is still only one persons opinion as to tangguh and quality. Even if that person is well respected they could still be wrong in their evaluation. This paper has no real definitive value. When dealing with a "low moral trader" one must simply look at the keris in question, not the seller or any document he claims to hold about the keris. If you don't know enough about keris to be able to judge if the one presented to you is worth the asking price how would you be educated enough to know if the certificate presented with it is real or not. Sorry, It seems to me that keris certificates only open up the keris world to even more means of deception than already exists.

A. G. Maisey · 30th October 2007, 11:55 PM

I had intended to stay out of this thread, however, I think the "certificate" thing does need a comment.

In respect of Bambang Harsinuksmo, I did not know the man personally, I consider that overall his work has been a valuable addition to keris literature, but I would comment that any person can appear in a different light to other people. If we obtain the opinions of a number of people about any one of us, those opinions can be very varied.

Since Bapak Bambang Harsrinuksmo has now moved on to the common destination of us all, I do feel it would be fitting if both positive and negative comment in respect of this gentleman were to be terminated.

However, about certificates.

I do not know when this practice started in Jawa, but I do know that Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo was providing certificates in 1982, and that as long as I knew him, Empu Suparman was also providing certificates.

Yes, an opinion on a tangguh is just that:- an opinion, but an opinion by a respected authority carries infinitely more weight than an opinion by somebody with little knowledge.

This is an exactly similar situation to an appraisal by a jeweller, or by an art expert. The jeweller will describe and classify the stone, and perhaps provide a market valuation. The expert in any field of art will do the same thing.

Take something more mundane:- the purchase of a secondhand car.
How many of us feel confident just to rely on the salesman's words of wisdom? Don't we want our mechanic to have a look at the vehicle? Maybe we even ask him for a written report. Same thing:- we get an expert opinion before we shell out the dinero.

So, when somebody in Jawa takes a keris along to an ahli keris for an opinion, you have in most cases a situation where the keris has been offered for sale, and the potential buyer wishes to gain an expert opinion before he pays out any money.Naturally the buyer wishes to go back to the seller with some evidence that he now has a very good idea of what it is that he is thinking about buying, so he asks for a letter, or a certificate, as evidence that he has obtained an expert opinion.

I have been present on numerous occasions when a potential buyer has asked for a certificate, and I have seen the reverse:- a dealer has purchased a keris that he thinks is something, but he is uncertain, so he has brought that keris to a recognised expert for an opinion.

Do not forget:- one of the functions of the keris is as a store of wealth. As is the case with any commodity regarded as a store of wealth, there must be an agreed way to determine the value of the commodity. In Jawa, the commonly accepted way of doing this is by obtaining the opinion of a recognised ahli keris. The certificate is simply evidence that the opinion has been given.

A collector, or even a dealer, can only rely upon his own knowledge to a limited extent, and within the bounds of his experience. Very often a collector simply does not have the necessary knowledge to form an adequate opinion, and the same can be true to a lesser extent with a dealer. The very best ahli keris have always been elderly men with a background in dealing, making, and repair of keris. During their lives they could well have handled tens of thousands of keris. No collector can ever hope to come anywhere near the experience of one of these men.

Now, there is another side to this, and it is most definitely corrupt.

There are a number of people who have some recognition within certain groups and sub-groups who will provide certificates to order and for payment.

I am not prepared to comment further in respect of this, but I will say that when a keris is offered for sale with a certificate, and the person who has signed that certificate is not known to the buyer as an honourable and knowledgeable man, then it might be as well to disregard the certificate. In other words, to evaluate the worth of a certificate, one needs to have an intimate knowledge of the keris world in Jawa, and to know the level of knowledge and acceptance within the keris community of the person providing the certificate.

Keris certificates are as reliable as the person who provides them.

30th October 2007, 08:57 AM	#2
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Keris Sertificate Dear Marco, John, and All, About one or two year before he died, Bambang Harsrinuksmo also had a "brilliant idea" of issuing certificate of keris. (This is one example of his certification, please look at this pics): http://www.heritageofjava.com/keris/sertifikat_01.html Maybe this is the only one "commercial side" in the life of Bambang. But Bambang -- in my opinion -- tried to be objective in certificating kerises. And like as if certificate of "graduation" in schools, it has "identity photo" of the keris itself... Unfortunately, this certification had stopped as he passed away in 2003. Ganjawulung

27th October 2007, 01:41 PM	#1
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Thanks for sharing Ganja. I had the privilege of an email exchange with the Bambang shortly before his passing and I like the man, a gentleman.

30th October 2007, 02:31 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Sorry, i see nothing "brilliant" about a keris certificate. Opinions on keris are so subjective at times. One "experts" opinion can sometimes vary greatly from another. I find the certificates issued to be fairly useless except as a selling ploy to the uneducated. No matter how "objective" you believe Bambang was in this process it was still only an opinion.

30th October 2007, 05:11 PM	#5
Raden Usman Djogja Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 199	David, I am sorry not translating "keblondrok" in English. I dont know the proper translation of it. Keblondrok is the situation that somebody pay much more effort than he should. Oh.. no.. no.. I dont know how to express keblondrok. It is a funy word. warm salam, Usmen

30th October 2007, 11:55 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,992	I had intended to stay out of this thread, however, I think the "certificate" thing does need a comment. In respect of Bambang Harsinuksmo, I did not know the man personally, I consider that overall his work has been a valuable addition to keris literature, but I would comment that any person can appear in a different light to other people. If we obtain the opinions of a number of people about any one of us, those opinions can be very varied. Since Bapak Bambang Harsrinuksmo has now moved on to the common destination of us all, I do feel it would be fitting if both positive and negative comment in respect of this gentleman were to be terminated. However, about certificates. I do not know when this practice started in Jawa, but I do know that Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo was providing certificates in 1982, and that as long as I knew him, Empu Suparman was also providing certificates. Yes, an opinion on a tangguh is just that:- an opinion, but an opinion by a respected authority carries infinitely more weight than an opinion by somebody with little knowledge. This is an exactly similar situation to an appraisal by a jeweller, or by an art expert. The jeweller will describe and classify the stone, and perhaps provide a market valuation. The expert in any field of art will do the same thing. Take something more mundane:- the purchase of a secondhand car. How many of us feel confident just to rely on the salesman's words of wisdom? Don't we want our mechanic to have a look at the vehicle? Maybe we even ask him for a written report. Same thing:- we get an expert opinion before we shell out the dinero. So, when somebody in Jawa takes a keris along to an ahli keris for an opinion, you have in most cases a situation where the keris has been offered for sale, and the potential buyer wishes to gain an expert opinion before he pays out any money.Naturally the buyer wishes to go back to the seller with some evidence that he now has a very good idea of what it is that he is thinking about buying, so he asks for a letter, or a certificate, as evidence that he has obtained an expert opinion. I have been present on numerous occasions when a potential buyer has asked for a certificate, and I have seen the reverse:- a dealer has purchased a keris that he thinks is something, but he is uncertain, so he has brought that keris to a recognised expert for an opinion. Do not forget:- one of the functions of the keris is as a store of wealth. As is the case with any commodity regarded as a store of wealth, there must be an agreed way to determine the value of the commodity. In Jawa, the commonly accepted way of doing this is by obtaining the opinion of a recognised ahli keris. The certificate is simply evidence that the opinion has been given. A collector, or even a dealer, can only rely upon his own knowledge to a limited extent, and within the bounds of his experience. Very often a collector simply does not have the necessary knowledge to form an adequate opinion, and the same can be true to a lesser extent with a dealer. The very best ahli keris have always been elderly men with a background in dealing, making, and repair of keris. During their lives they could well have handled tens of thousands of keris. No collector can ever hope to come anywhere near the experience of one of these men. Now, there is another side to this, and it is most definitely corrupt. There are a number of people who have some recognition within certain groups and sub-groups who will provide certificates to order and for payment. I am not prepared to comment further in respect of this, but I will say that when a keris is offered for sale with a certificate, and the person who has signed that certificate is not known to the buyer as an honourable and knowledgeable man, then it might be as well to disregard the certificate. In other words, to evaluate the worth of a certificate, one needs to have an intimate knowledge of the keris world in Jawa, and to know the level of knowledge and acceptance within the keris community of the person providing the certificate. Keris certificates are as reliable as the person who provides them.