Were the chakram's only used by the Sikhs?

Jens Nordlunde · 17th October 2007, 04:57 PM

Hi Fernando,
Interesting link thank you. Did you know that the chakra is also called a quoit? So far I have seen three ways of throwing it decsribed, Egerton, Stone and the author of the book I am reading, all give a different way. The author of the book has seen them in use, so I expect his description must be correct, and Stone tells that a friend of his has seen them demonstrated, so his description must also be correct, but I don't know if Egerton ever saw them being used, he might have, but was the way they were thrown really so different in the different parts of the country?
Jens

katana · 17th October 2007, 07:39 PM

Hi Jens found this reference to a similar weapon which seems to indicate that other variants existed before the Chakra....

"....The history of the Liang Dynasty of China (506-556) spoke of a kingdom called Po-Li to be found on the northern tip of Sumatra. This same kingdom was again mentioned in the history of Sui Dynasty (581-671). "The people in this land are masters at throwing a disk, about the size of a small mirror, whose edges are cerated and sharp, and in whose center a hole is cut. If they throw this weapon they never miss. The other weapons they use are much the same as those existing in China."

http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=16&gl=uk

fernando · 17th October 2007, 08:04 PM

Hi David

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

"The people in this land are masters at throwing a disk, about the size of a small mirror, whose edges are cerated and sharp ..."

It comes to mind that we can see these discs in action in Chinese fiction movies ... there is no smoke without fire.
Fernando

katana · 17th October 2007, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi David

It comes to mind that we can see these discs in action in Chinese fiction movies ... there is no smoke without fire.
Fernando

Hi Fernando,
yes indeed, the Chinese produced an amazing array of very unusual weapons.

Quoits is a game, using metal rings to 'hit' a target (think 'hoopla'), however a number of sites dedicated to the game ...state that originally the rings were sharpened weapons dating back to the Ancient Greeks. Bearing in mind many sports were designed to keep your warriors battle ready. It makes perfect sense that skill with the 'disc weapon' would be maintained with 'friendly competion' during 'peace time'.

I have also read that the earlier examples of Chakra were more functional than later examples which became more ornate and symbollic. Many early ones had an 'aero foil' shape (in cross section) to aid accuracy and power. Some had small holes which 'whistled' as it flew through the air, which 'un-nerved' the opposing warriors.

David

fernando · 17th October 2007, 08:14 PM

Hi Jens
"Killing two rabits with the same shot" ... or trying to answer both questions with the same source.

Quote:

Did you know that the chakra is also called a quoit? ... but was the way they were thrown really so different in the different parts of the country?

Here you will find, besides some info on its origins, a certain typology differentiating chakram from quoit, as well as mentioning three different ways of throwing this weapon.
http://www.flight-toys.com/rings/chackrum.html
Before reading this, i thaught that twirling them was a bit of a fantasy.
I also thaught that quoit was the western name for chakram.
Fernando

Davinder Toor · 17th October 2007, 09:08 PM

An interesting 17thc scene showing Yogis in battle using the chakram.

Davinder Toor · 17th October 2007, 09:19 PM

Maybe the 'stick with a ring of iron at the base' which is referred to could have been something similar to this.

fernando · 17th October 2007, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toshkhana

An interesting 17thc scene showing Yogis in battle using the chakram.

Great elucidating picture Toshkhana. We can even see that they use the index finger to twirl and through the chakram.

Jens Nordlunde · 18th October 2007, 02:00 PM

Katana and Fernando, thank you very much for your research. It is very interesting that the charka has been taken centuries back in time and to the north of Sumatra. So either it started its ‘life’ far away from India, and the use of it was spread to other regions, or maybe it was known to a very big area very early.

Toshkana, the print you show is very instructive, and if it has been used as shown on the picture, it really must have been a very common weapon at one time. The charka on the stick mentioned could be like the one you show on the next picture, or it could be like the one shown in the upper right corner – thank you for your help.

Jens Nordlunde · 18th October 2007, 05:00 PM

Maybe not all have Stone on their bookshelf, so no doubt, have one around there neck – but that is quite another thing.

So here is what he writes about throwing a Chakram. “Egerton says, p. 128, that it is whirled around the finger and thrown with great accuracy and force as much as sixty paces. A friend of mine who saw them thrown at the military games at Rawal Pindi gives quite a different description of how it is done. He says that the thrower stands squarely facing his objective, takes the chakram between the thumb and first finger of the right hand, holding it low down on his left side. He then turns his body as to bring the right shoulder as far forward as possible and throws underhand with a full swing of his body. He also says that it is thrown with sufficient force and accuracy to cut off a green bamboo three-quarters of an inch in diameter at a distance of thirty yards”

Ludevico di Varthema writes that they “throw these with a sling when they want to injure any person”.

I don’t know if one method was more used than the other, but there seems to have different ways to throw it.

I have just seen that Rawal Pindi is in north west of Punjab.

roshan · 24th November 2007, 12:23 PM

I think something is missing from this thread.

The Chakram is in fact an extremely important weapon in the Hindu religion - it is the sacred weapon of the Hindu god Krishna, often used by him to execute his enemies. In texts such as the Mahabharata, Krishna is described as spinning the Chakram around his finger, and then releasing it towards the enemy. Other than that though, I have never encountered any reference about the Chakram being used by any other Hindu gods or heroes. In the minds of the average Hindu, the Chakram is closely associated with Krishna, and not Sikhism. What I do not understand though is why the weapon declined amongst Hindus, and became popular amongst the Sikhs. Perhaps one must ask whether it was ever actually used by Hindus in combat at all, or whether it was originally just a fantasy weapon.

Sikhs may have come to develop the Chakram due to its close association with the Vaishnava bhakti (worship of Vishnu, and his main incarnations Rama and Krishna) movement. Although modern Sikhism promotes the worship of god without form, the early history of the religion is quite different. The Guru Granth mentions Vishnu, Rama and Krishna hundreds of times - often referring to specific events in the lives of these dieties. It also incorporates verses authored by many Vaishnava saints, including Namdev from the Varkari tradition of Maharashtra, who was a staunch idolator. The holiest temple of the Sikhs is called the Harmandir (literally temple of Hari, another name of Vishnu) and had pictures of various Hindu dieties until the very recent Sikh reform movement, and the lake it stands on is supposedly an ancient lake sacred to Vaishnavas. And, even more strange, most of the Sikh gurus are named after Vishnu and his various incarnations: Ram Das (literally devotee of Ram), Hargobind (Hari + Gobind, names of Vishnu and Krishna respectively), Har Krishan (Hari + Krishna), Angad Dev (Angad is a character who helped Rama in the Ramayana), Gobind Singh (Gobind means cow protector, another name for Krishna), Arjan Dev (Arjuna is Krishnas closest friend) and Har Rai (Hari again).

Also, Id like to ask, does anyone know if the Chakram is actually effective in combat against an enemy? It seems to me that it is a virtually useless weapon - impractical to carry, hard (likely even risky) to throw, impossible to aim, and ineffective as well.

17th October 2007, 09:08 PM	#6
Davinder Toor Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 22	An interesting 17thc scene showing Yogis in battle using the chakram. Attached Images

17th October 2007, 09:19 PM	#7
Davinder Toor Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 22	Maybe the 'stick with a ring of iron at the base' which is referred to could have been something similar to this. Attached Images

17th October 2007, 04:57 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Fernando, Interesting link thank you. Did you know that the chakra is also called a quoit? So far I have seen three ways of throwing it decsribed, Egerton, Stone and the author of the book I am reading, all give a different way. The author of the book has seen them in use, so I expect his description must be correct, and Stone tells that a friend of his has seen them demonstrated, so his description must also be correct, but I don't know if Egerton ever saw them being used, he might have, but was the way they were thrown really so different in the different parts of the country? Jens

17th October 2007, 07:39 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Jens found this reference to a similar weapon which seems to indicate that other variants existed before the Chakra.... "....The history of the Liang Dynasty of China (506-556) spoke of a kingdom called Po-Li to be found on the northern tip of Sumatra. This same kingdom was again mentioned in the history of Sui Dynasty (581-671). "The people in this land are masters at throwing a disk, about the size of a small mirror, whose edges are cerated and sharp, and in whose center a hole is cut. If they throw this weapon they never miss. The other weapons they use are much the same as those existing in China." http://64.233.183.104/search?q=cache...nk&cd=16&gl=uk

18th October 2007, 02:00 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Katana and Fernando, thank you very much for your research. It is very interesting that the charka has been taken centuries back in time and to the north of Sumatra. So either it started its ‘life’ far away from India, and the use of it was spread to other regions, or maybe it was known to a very big area very early. Toshkana, the print you show is very instructive, and if it has been used as shown on the picture, it really must have been a very common weapon at one time. The charka on the stick mentioned could be like the one you show on the next picture, or it could be like the one shown in the upper right corner – thank you for your help.

18th October 2007, 05:00 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Maybe not all have Stone on their bookshelf, so no doubt, have one around there neck – but that is quite another thing. So here is what he writes about throwing a Chakram. “Egerton says, p. 128, that it is whirled around the finger and thrown with great accuracy and force as much as sixty paces. A friend of mine who saw them thrown at the military games at Rawal Pindi gives quite a different description of how it is done. He says that the thrower stands squarely facing his objective, takes the chakram between the thumb and first finger of the right hand, holding it low down on his left side. He then turns his body as to bring the right shoulder as far forward as possible and throws underhand with a full swing of his body. He also says that it is thrown with sufficient force and accuracy to cut off a green bamboo three-quarters of an inch in diameter at a distance of thirty yards” Ludevico di Varthema writes that they “throw these with a sling when they want to injure any person”. I don’t know if one method was more used than the other, but there seems to have different ways to throw it. I have just seen that Rawal Pindi is in north west of Punjab.

24th November 2007, 12:23 PM	#11
roshan Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 20	I think something is missing from this thread. The Chakram is in fact an extremely important weapon in the Hindu religion - it is the sacred weapon of the Hindu god Krishna, often used by him to execute his enemies. In texts such as the Mahabharata, Krishna is described as spinning the Chakram around his finger, and then releasing it towards the enemy. Other than that though, I have never encountered any reference about the Chakram being used by any other Hindu gods or heroes. In the minds of the average Hindu, the Chakram is closely associated with Krishna, and not Sikhism. What I do not understand though is why the weapon declined amongst Hindus, and became popular amongst the Sikhs. Perhaps one must ask whether it was ever actually used by Hindus in combat at all, or whether it was originally just a fantasy weapon. Sikhs may have come to develop the Chakram due to its close association with the Vaishnava bhakti (worship of Vishnu, and his main incarnations Rama and Krishna) movement. Although modern Sikhism promotes the worship of god without form, the early history of the religion is quite different. The Guru Granth mentions Vishnu, Rama and Krishna hundreds of times - often referring to specific events in the lives of these dieties. It also incorporates verses authored by many Vaishnava saints, including Namdev from the Varkari tradition of Maharashtra, who was a staunch idolator. The holiest temple of the Sikhs is called the Harmandir (literally temple of Hari, another name of Vishnu) and had pictures of various Hindu dieties until the very recent Sikh reform movement, and the lake it stands on is supposedly an ancient lake sacred to Vaishnavas. And, even more strange, most of the Sikh gurus are named after Vishnu and his various incarnations: Ram Das (literally devotee of Ram), Hargobind (Hari + Gobind, names of Vishnu and Krishna respectively), Har Krishan (Hari + Krishna), Angad Dev (Angad is a character who helped Rama in the Ramayana), Gobind Singh (Gobind means cow protector, another name for Krishna), Arjan Dev (Arjuna is Krishnas closest friend) and Har Rai (Hari again). Also, Id like to ask, does anyone know if the Chakram is actually effective in combat against an enemy? It seems to me that it is a virtually useless weapon - impractical to carry, hard (likely even risky) to throw, impossible to aim, and ineffective as well.