Bugis keris

nechesh · 14th March 2005, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

This keris is a Peninsular one - from Terengganu, however from the looks of it the blade is a very old Javanese one - most likely a trade blade. The dress is about mid-20th century and is of decent but not stellar quality.

Sorry Dave but, i'm not just trying to be contrary here. I realize this is a stickler point, but i have seen this kind of response coming up a bit lately. IMO, this this is a Javanese KERIS. It is the DRESS that is Peninsula. IMO it is the iron which is the keris. All else, regardless of how beautiful, is cultural presentation.

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 08:14 AM

The iron makes the keris blade, but the keris is a 'whole package' thing. The dress is as important as the blade.

Just like people. While Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are of extremely similar genetic makeup, its the 'cultural presentation' that makes one Chinese, Japanese or Korean. In fact, some Chinese have even crossed over to become Malay in my part of the world (Southeast Asia). They have a term for it "masuk Melayu". The same applies to Arabs and Indians who have, over the centuries, become integrated into the Malay identity and call themselves Malays.

Similarly, a keris blade (tilam upih for example) dressed in a Riau keris would be considered a Riau keris whereas the same blade dressed in a ladrangan Solo would be a Solonese keris.

The legendary Malay hero Hang Tuah went to Java in search of a keris. He found one -- Taming Sari -- and brought it back to Peninsula Malaysia. He dressed it in local sheath/handle styles as you can imagine he would not be caught dead wearing it with a Javanese ladrangan sheath in the Malay world. What is Taming Sari then? A Malay keris, as my fellow Malay friends would say.

tom hyle · 14th March 2005, 11:19 AM

Hmmmm "The blade IS the sword" I consider this a hard and fast rule, as far as my personal analyses go.
Now, I am not the most knowlegable here about the details of SE Asian culture, however, it seems to me to be particularly integral to the interactions of Oceanic East Asians with their swords (particularly k[e]ris and Nihon-to), from initial construction through simple maintanance and various re-dressings, including a single blade sometimes owning various dress for various occassions, that the sword is the blade and the dress is just that; dress, clothing, and any real man can tell you, the clothes do not make the man, and it's often considered unwise to think they do (as to judge a book by looking at its cover). Of course, with a sword the handle will influence its use, and the sheath will influence its protection, and I suppose it might even enjoy some jewellery, but all in all it remains the blade that truly is a sword.

nechesh · 14th March 2005, 11:32 AM

Sorry Kai Wee, but i respectfully disagree. I don't mean to suggest that dress is unimportant. That is certainly not the case. But the iron is always the MOST important part of the keris. Dress will be changed by time and circumstance, but the iron remains. If the owner a a keris pusaka falls on hard times he might be found to sell off the valuable parts of his dress, but the keris itself would be the last thing he lets go of. I would personally always give due respect to the empu of such a keris by referring to at as being from it's place of origin first rgardless of which culture it is dressed in. To me this is the only logical way to properly classify these weapons in a way that makes sense.
Why did Hang Tauh find it necessary to go to Jawa in search of a keris? He must have thought much of the skills of the Javanese empus. Do we then disregard their work and skills. IMO, Taming Sari would be a Javanese keris in Peninsula dress. I would have to respectively disagree with your Malay friends though i understand their sense of nationalism.

tom hyle · 14th March 2005, 11:44 AM

Lost track of something else; What thoughts on the slots in the blade? Could they be a later feature; a response to a hole wearing/etching through one or both fullers? I've certainly seen such holes (I'm sure I'm not the only one), and this blade is deeply etched (some of the layering lines are almost like fullers themselves). What is the etching like inside the edges of the slots; as deep as elsewhere?

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 12:09 PM

I'm not playing down the importance of the blade, or saying that the blade is not (part of) the keris. And I'm also not disrespecting the skills of the smith/empu who made the blade. Don't go to the other extreme.

Yes, the "blade is the sword", but what kind of sword?

Take me for example. I'm ethnically Chinese. Both my grandfathers came from China. But I'm not going to dress like a China Chinese and tell people that I am a Chinese National. Genetically, I'm the exactly the same as the people from China, much like Taming Sari was forged by a Javanese empu. But I'll tell you my identity is a Singaporean of Chinese descent, here in Southeast Asia, part of the Malay world.

So what happens to a keris that makes its way from Java to Peninsula Malaysia? Yes, the blade was made by a Javanese smith. But now that it has made its way to the Malay world, and dressed as such, is it still a Javanese keris? Would any Americans of German descent say that they are Germans? I think they call themselves Americans.

Take another example. The firanggi swords used by Indians. Blade may be European, but I'm sure you won't call it a European sabre/sword in its present dress. What about Ethiopian shotels?

DAHenkel · 14th March 2005, 02:13 PM

We all spend a lot of time wondering and thinking about what part of what is what. Javanese blades, Malay sampir, Bugis hilts - and rightfully so. Its interesting, its fun and we learn a little bit about the origins and lifetime of an individual keris. Who defines whether the keris is Javanese because the blade is - or Malay because the dress is depends on who you talk to I suppose. I'd venture to say that the folks in Jerteh would probably tell you its a Terengganu keris with a Javanese blade and they'd be right in their humble opinion. You might even find one or two contrarians around to back you up in an argument. Who knows.

Still, I'd love to see people's reactions when you march into the bale of the Kraton Solo in full formal Javanese costume with this "Javanese" keris tucked into your kemben.

nechesh · 14th March 2005, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Still, I'd love to see people's reactions when you march into the bale of the Kraton Solo in full formal Javanese costume with this "Javanese" keris tucked into your kemben.

You're probably right there Dave, that would probably be a bit of a faux pas.

However, how easy would it be for me to just change the dress of this keris before entering the Kraton and then change it back again on my return to the Peninsula. The blade remains what it is regardless of the dress. Recently i believe you or Kai Wee posted a photo of yourselves in Malay dress complete with your keris. You guys looked stunning. i might add.

Add to this authentic dress the fact that you speak the language flawlessly and are totally emersed in the culture. Still, i have to wonder if when people see you there they think, "There goes a Malaysian man". At the end of the day you are still a human of the European gene pool dressed in Malay clothing. Nothing wrong with that, mind you, but you are still who you are. You can't deny or erase your origin, nor do i think you should try. IMO it is the same with keris.

Kai Wee, i cannot see how i can put the dress of a keris on an equal footing with the blade. If that's what you mean by going to the other extreme, it's too late, am already there.

If i had just the blade it would not be at all unusual to commission new dress for it. Living outside the culture as i do i would probably choose to dress it most appropriately to the origin of the blade. If i lived within the culture i would probably dress it according to my own local custom. But have you ever heard of someone commisioning a blade for dress that had lost it's blade? That seems rather an unlikely scenerio. The angsar, the power that resides in the keris, resides in the blade, not the sheath. Yes, it is true that a keris is incomplete with a sheath, but that doesn't make the sheath as important as the keris itself. The dress can always be added. The blade, with it's angsar, is the heart of it all.
Actually, though you will find many well assimilated Americans, many will refer to themselves as African-Americans, German-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, etc., especially around the holidays that relate to their ancestrial countries of origin (try coming to Cincinati during OktoberFest and see how many people here are German). Note that in these configurations the ancestrial country comes before Americans.

When holes like this appear in the sogokan it is generally worn through from years of acid washing. These slits are so even though, that i suspect someone may have helped this process along with some additional filing. These are often confused with the mystical holes which Alam Shah refers to, know as cemplong (i have sometimes seen this written combong). Cemplong are clearly placed there by the empu and the owner of the keris is supposed to be able to obtain what he spys through the hole(s) while chanting the appropriate mantras.

tom hyle · 15th March 2005, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

We all spend a lot of time wondering and thinking about what part of what is what. Javanese blades, Malay sampir, Bugis hilts - and rightfully so. Its interesting, its fun and we learn a little bit about the origins and lifetime of an individual keris. Who defines whether the keris is Javanese because the blade is - or Malay because the dress is depends on who you talk to I suppose. I'd venture to say that the folks in Jerteh would probably tell you its a Terengganu keris with a Javanese blade and they'd be right in their humble opinion. You might even find one or two contrarians around to back you up in an argument. Who knows.

Still, I'd love to see people's reactions when you march into the bale of the Kraton Solo in full formal Javanese costume with this "Javanese" keris tucked into your kemben.

There does seem to be a growing fascination with "proper" dress; with seeing a Java k(e)ris in Java dress, etc, and this phenomenon does not seem to me to be old/traditional nor SE Asian.

Bluerf: those are interesting points that do seem to colour the issue. However, allow me to propose that they carry a greater weight with items, like the examples you give, where the blade has been incorporated into what is intended as at least a more-or-less permanent assembly; becoming in effect a part of a single object. This is prominantly not the case with k(e)ris.

Further, allow me to suggest that being raised in a culture foreign to your genes is more like being a java k(e)ris made from Balinese ore, while a person FROM China who moves to USA and learns N American English and wears N American clothes is more like a Bali blade in Java dress. Although Java and Bali are not that far apart, of course......

I might mention here, BTW, that I do consider there to be a significant difference it type between shotels (with native or foreign blades) and sabres mounted as shotels, as well as between sabre sayf and the straight usually foreign blades one occasionally sees so mounted. Firangi is interesting, as it seems, though locally influenced, to have been invented specifically for the foreign blades. But my understanding of its name is that, in India, it is being called an European sword.

Alam Shah · 14th March 2005, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Lost track of something else; What thoughts on the slots in the blade? Could they be a later feature; a response to a hole wearing/etching through one or both fullers? I've certainly seen such holes (I'm sure I'm not the only one), and this blade is deeply etched (some of the layering lines are almost like fullers themselves). What is the etching like inside the edges of the slots; as deep as elsewhere?

AFAIK, the holes may be used for mystical purposes. In Van Duuren's The Kris - An earthly approach to a cosmic symbol, there is a mention on pg.11 about a keris with a little chink in its blade used as a charm.

14th March 2005, 11:19 AM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Hmmmm "The blade IS the sword" I consider this a hard and fast rule, as far as my personal analyses go. Now, I am not the most knowlegable here about the details of SE Asian culture, however, it seems to me to be particularly integral to the interactions of Oceanic East Asians with their swords (particularly k[e]ris and Nihon-to), from initial construction through simple maintanance and various re-dressings, including a single blade sometimes owning various dress for various occassions, that the sword is the blade and the dress is just that; dress, clothing, and any real man can tell you, the clothes do not make the man, and it's often considered unwise to think they do (as to judge a book by looking at its cover). Of course, with a sword the handle will influence its use, and the sheath will influence its protection, and I suppose it might even enjoy some jewellery, but all in all it remains the blade that truly is a sword. Last edited by tom hyle; 14th March 2005 at 11:40 AM.

14th March 2005, 08:14 AM	#2
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	The iron makes the keris blade, but the keris is a 'whole package' thing. The dress is as important as the blade. Just like people. While Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are of extremely similar genetic makeup, its the 'cultural presentation' that makes one Chinese, Japanese or Korean. In fact, some Chinese have even crossed over to become Malay in my part of the world (Southeast Asia). They have a term for it "masuk Melayu". The same applies to Arabs and Indians who have, over the centuries, become integrated into the Malay identity and call themselves Malays. Similarly, a keris blade (tilam upih for example) dressed in a Riau keris would be considered a Riau keris whereas the same blade dressed in a ladrangan Solo would be a Solonese keris. The legendary Malay hero Hang Tuah went to Java in search of a keris. He found one -- Taming Sari -- and brought it back to Peninsula Malaysia. He dressed it in local sheath/handle styles as you can imagine he would not be caught dead wearing it with a Javanese ladrangan sheath in the Malay world. What is Taming Sari then? A Malay keris, as my fellow Malay friends would say.

14th March 2005, 11:32 AM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Sorry Kai Wee, but i respectfully disagree. I don't mean to suggest that dress is unimportant. That is certainly not the case. But the iron is always the MOST important part of the keris. Dress will be changed by time and circumstance, but the iron remains. If the owner a a keris pusaka falls on hard times he might be found to sell off the valuable parts of his dress, but the keris itself would be the last thing he lets go of. I would personally always give due respect to the empu of such a keris by referring to at as being from it's place of origin first rgardless of which culture it is dressed in. To me this is the only logical way to properly classify these weapons in a way that makes sense. Why did Hang Tauh find it necessary to go to Jawa in search of a keris? He must have thought much of the skills of the Javanese empus. Do we then disregard their work and skills. IMO, Taming Sari would be a Javanese keris in Peninsula dress. I would have to respectively disagree with your Malay friends though i understand their sense of nationalism.

14th March 2005, 11:44 AM	#5
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Lost track of something else; What thoughts on the slots in the blade? Could they be a later feature; a response to a hole wearing/etching through one or both fullers? I've certainly seen such holes (I'm sure I'm not the only one), and this blade is deeply etched (some of the layering lines are almost like fullers themselves). What is the etching like inside the edges of the slots; as deep as elsewhere?

14th March 2005, 12:09 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I'm not playing down the importance of the blade, or saying that the blade is not (part of) the keris. And I'm also not disrespecting the skills of the smith/empu who made the blade. Don't go to the other extreme. Yes, the "blade is the sword", but what kind of sword? Take me for example. I'm ethnically Chinese. Both my grandfathers came from China. But I'm not going to dress like a China Chinese and tell people that I am a Chinese National. Genetically, I'm the exactly the same as the people from China, much like Taming Sari was forged by a Javanese empu. But I'll tell you my identity is a Singaporean of Chinese descent, here in Southeast Asia, part of the Malay world. So what happens to a keris that makes its way from Java to Peninsula Malaysia? Yes, the blade was made by a Javanese smith. But now that it has made its way to the Malay world, and dressed as such, is it still a Javanese keris? Would any Americans of German descent say that they are Germans? I think they call themselves Americans. Take another example. The firanggi swords used by Indians. Blade may be European, but I'm sure you won't call it a European sabre/sword in its present dress. What about Ethiopian shotels?

14th March 2005, 02:13 PM	#7
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	We all spend a lot of time wondering and thinking about what part of what is what. Javanese blades, Malay sampir, Bugis hilts - and rightfully so. Its interesting, its fun and we learn a little bit about the origins and lifetime of an individual keris. Who defines whether the keris is Javanese because the blade is - or Malay because the dress is depends on who you talk to I suppose. I'd venture to say that the folks in Jerteh would probably tell you its a Terengganu keris with a Javanese blade and they'd be right in their humble opinion. You might even find one or two contrarians around to back you up in an argument. Who knows. Still, I'd love to see people's reactions when you march into the bale of the Kraton Solo in full formal Javanese costume with this "Javanese" keris tucked into your kemben.