"regular" VOC sword or ethnograpical object?

Dajak · 16th October 2007, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Please read Ben

It is clear that it is a real VOC sword and nobody asked about the price.

The blade has VOC markings (in fact the Chambre of Amsterdam)
The VOC was divided in separate department (kamer) and well known ones are Amsterdam / Rotterdam and Hoorn.

The hilt seems european to me.
maybe it has been used as a hunting sword/side arm ?

No way this is an real voc sword .
It is an sword that has making VOC that s the difference
Willem I am telling buying an real old VOC sword is like a win in the lottery .
But I see you take it up for your friend you always bidding on his stuff but never get it .
I have no problem with that.

Ben

Tim Simmons · 16th October 2007, 06:50 PM

If you are dissapointed with this piece, look no further. What a splendid handle!!!

Mytribalworld · 16th October 2007, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

No way this is an real voc sword .
It is an sword that has making VOC that s the difference
Willem I am telling buying an real old VOC sword is like a win in the lottery .
But I see you take it up for your friend you always bidding on his stuff but never get it .
I have no problem with that.

Ben

Sorry Ben but this behavior goes really too far in my opinion.
It seems that you can't act on this forum without getting too personal.
My pencil is sharper than my swords my reading is better than ever course I'm also able to read " between the lines".
If we win on ebay we pay and also Willem has too.That why our feedback is that good.Willem is a besides a good friend of mine also a collector and also a paying customer.Maybe you should learn at least some of that behaviour.
I really was interested in this forum but as long as you are on it I don"t take it for serious.Forumleader will have a PM.

Arjan

David · 16th October 2007, 10:31 PM

Ben, Your last remark seems totally unnecessary and off topic. Let's stick to the sword at hand. What you think about other auctions is unimportant to this thread and personal attacks are against forum policy.

Dajak · 17th October 2007, 03:42 AM

I send you an pm

Ben

Jim McDougall · 17th October 2007, 04:55 AM

This is an interesting sword that seems in line with quite modern weapons seen in West Africa, as has been noted. Some have standard type stirrup hilts of European military form, while this, as has been mentioned seems in line with many European hunting hangers.
I think Tim has a very good suggestion on the zoomorphic hilt representing the leopard. It seems that the leopard totem was significant in secret societies as well as other cultural symbolism as he has mentioned.
The multinational trade that prevailed on the west coast of Africa during the 18th century diffused many weapons into these regions and may account for what appears to be an 18th c. blade here.

I agree that it is extremely rare to find a VOC marked blade, as in my collecting days I tried for many years unsuccessfully to find one! It seems they did turn up occasionally on Sinhalese kastanes (for some reason the year 1768 seems predominant on those examples).

I am curious about the note about the markings on this blade which note the markings apply to the Amsterdam department of VOC. I was not aware that the different cities used different markings.....is there any way to know the differences.....just in case any of us might get lucky enough to find one of these rare blades?

I would really appreciate knowing more on this and hope those of you with keen insight into this seldom discussed topic might comment.

Mytribalworld · 17th October 2007, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is an interesting sword that seems in line with quite modern weapons seen in West Africa, as has been noted. Some have standard type stirrup hilts of European military form, while this, as has been mentioned seems in line with many European hunting hangers.
I think Tim has a very good suggestion on the zoomorphic hilt representing the leopard. It seems that the leopard totem was significant in secret societies as well as other cultural symbolism as he has mentioned.
The multinational trade that prevailed on the west coast of Africa during the 18th century diffused many weapons into these regions and may account for what appears to be an 18th c. blade here.

I agree that it is extremely rare to find a VOC marked blade, as in my collecting days I tried for many years unsuccessfully to find one! It seems they did turn up occasionally on Sinhalese kastanes (for some reason the year 1768 seems predominant on those examples).

I am curious about the note about the markings on this blade which note the markings apply to the Amsterdam department of VOC. I was not aware that the different cities used different markings.....is there any way to know the differences.....just in case any of us might get lucky enough to find one of these rare blades?

I would really appreciate knowing more on this and hope those of you with keen insight into this seldom discussed topic might comment.

Hi Jim,

Maybe the reason of the year 1768 on the blades is that in these years the Khanda of Ceylon was in war with the VOC. Its also known that later in these war the Ceylonese where stronger. Maybe they have captured a VOC weapon depot of fresh made blades in those days?

The VOC was set up in 1602 as "United East Indian Company" and from whole Holland people could join in the bussines.Thats why the company choose not the centralise the leadership in one city but to make "chambers" in the most know places.In each chamber was a part of the leadership.
There where 6 chambers:Amsterdam,Rotterdam,Middelburg,Hoorn,Enkh uizen and Delft.The money each member put into the commpany stayed there so all objects wher common property. All tools ,ships, weaponery, earthenware cannons etc where marked with the logo of the VOC and each chamber had his own mark.I found by Googling some marks. In most cases the mark excist in the common VOC logo joined with an "A"in the case of Amsterdam, "H" for Hoorn, "M" for middelburg ( together with the "Z" of the province "Zeeland").
ther where however a lot of variations on the logos what makes it today very difficult to see if the marks are original or not.old marks varies from beautifull well designed marks till likely hastly scratched marks. Also of course many objects like Bone china and also swords are copied.If thats also In this case I don't know.I had the idea that this was a good object.But I'm not an expert in those markings.What I know for sure is that this sword is a very old one.Also I can see that its certainly not a complated piece.

Arjan.

Tim Simmons · 17th October 2007, 07:41 AM

try google "Dutch interests West Africa"

David · 17th October 2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

I send you an pm Ben

...and i sent you one back.

Mark · 17th October 2007, 03:02 PM

Let me make it official: personal squabbles are to be kept OFF the boards. Everyone chill out, or be banned. Clear?

Mark
Vikingsword Staff

Jim McDougall · 18th October 2007, 02:31 AM

Hi Arjan,
Thank you so much for the detailed response and observations! Its always great to have such focus on historical data that applies directly to the weapons being discussed. With such input, these threads become great resources for those researching these weapons in the future.
Exactly the info I was looking for!

All best regards,
Jim

17th October 2007, 03:02 PM	#10
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	Fair warning Let me make it official: personal squabbles are to be kept OFF the boards. Everyone chill out, or be banned. Clear? Mark Vikingsword Staff

16th October 2007, 06:50 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	If you are dissapointed with this piece, look no further. What a splendid handle!!!

16th October 2007, 10:31 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Ben, Your last remark seems totally unnecessary and off topic. Let's stick to the sword at hand. What you think about other auctions is unimportant to this thread and personal attacks are against forum policy.

17th October 2007, 03:42 AM	#5
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	I send you an pm Ben

17th October 2007, 04:55 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	This is an interesting sword that seems in line with quite modern weapons seen in West Africa, as has been noted. Some have standard type stirrup hilts of European military form, while this, as has been mentioned seems in line with many European hunting hangers. I think Tim has a very good suggestion on the zoomorphic hilt representing the leopard. It seems that the leopard totem was significant in secret societies as well as other cultural symbolism as he has mentioned. The multinational trade that prevailed on the west coast of Africa during the 18th century diffused many weapons into these regions and may account for what appears to be an 18th c. blade here. I agree that it is extremely rare to find a VOC marked blade, as in my collecting days I tried for many years unsuccessfully to find one! It seems they did turn up occasionally on Sinhalese kastanes (for some reason the year 1768 seems predominant on those examples). I am curious about the note about the markings on this blade which note the markings apply to the Amsterdam department of VOC. I was not aware that the different cities used different markings.....is there any way to know the differences.....just in case any of us might get lucky enough to find one of these rare blades? I would really appreciate knowing more on this and hope those of you with keen insight into this seldom discussed topic might comment.

17th October 2007, 07:41 AM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	try google "Dutch interests West Africa"

18th October 2007, 02:31 AM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Arjan, Thank you so much for the detailed response and observations! Its always great to have such focus on historical data that applies directly to the weapons being discussed. With such input, these threads become great resources for those researching these weapons in the future. Exactly the info I was looking for! All best regards, Jim