Were the chakram's only used by the Sikhs?

Jens Nordlunde · 14th October 2007, 09:36 PM

You could be right, but why does he write that they live fifteen days journey away, and the they fought against the Sultan? To me this sounds as if it is a homogenious clan/sub clan, belonging at a special place.

fernando · 14th October 2007, 11:02 PM

Hi Jens, may i come in ?
It appears that the name, besides yogi as sugested by Dennee, could also be Jogues, and they are also depicted in Imagens do Oriente, watercolour XLVI. Resuming the various period chronists in the Codice introduction, they were sort of philosophers, pilgrims and beggars, wearing very little clothes, either a couple furs or capes of mended pieces of cloth found in the trash. They covered their bodies with ashes ( curi ), which they considered sanctifying.
Browsing on the term, we can read Della Vale ( 1586-1652 ) mentioning their settlement at Kadri near Mangalore ... which is very far from Cambay

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi...1:1:251.hobson
However there is a missing link here, as so far only the guys quoted by Warthema were said to use weaponry. Maybe as you say, they would be a special sect.
Fernando

dennee · 14th October 2007, 11:14 PM

I suppose that Jogues could also be a European transliteration, as many yogis/yogins could generally be considered philosophers/pilgrims/beggars. Any particular group might well be related by caste and geographical origin, it just may be that it is difficult to identify them with a particular spot or caste based on the name.

Jens Nordlunde · 15th October 2007, 12:17 PM

Yes you may Fernando, and you are very welcome. Plate XLVI it is, I should have thought of looking there myself.
I did not know Hobson, it is most interesting, and it seems as if Hobson has found the king. The fact that they, 80-130 years later, lived in another place called Kadri near Mangalore does not have to mean much, as someone else can have taken their land and they had to find new land somewhere else, but I agree with you that Mangalore is very much to the south compared to Cambay.
The reason why I brought the subject up was due to the mention of the weapons they used. Does anyone know how widely spread the use of the maze mentioned and the chakram was?

Denee, you may have a point, but from the way it is written I think the author writes about a specific place.

fernando · 15th October 2007, 01:39 PM

It could be that this weapon is older thand the foundation of Sikhs.
As an example, just consider this:
http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...9916store.html

Jens Nordlunde · 15th October 2007, 02:45 PM

Fernando, I think you are on to something right, as I too believe it to be a very old weapon. The strange thing is that the Sikh’s went on using it, but the other tribes/clans stopped using it. I also wonder why other early travellers does not mention it, as it must have been a very strange weapon to them.

fernando · 17th October 2007, 01:49 PM

Hi Jens,
Yesterday i have found the following definition of Chakram in a certain glossary:
chakra sharp-edged metal disc used as a projectile weapon by medieval and early modern yogis; also yogic term for each of the seven centers of energy in the human body; from Sanskrit chakram (wheel).
This is the link.
http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/c...1851688&ss=fro
All the best
Fernando

15th October 2007, 12:17 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes you may Fernando, and you are very welcome. Plate XLVI it is, I should have thought of looking there myself. I did not know Hobson, it is most interesting, and it seems as if Hobson has found the king. The fact that they, 80-130 years later, lived in another place called Kadri near Mangalore does not have to mean much, as someone else can have taken their land and they had to find new land somewhere else, but I agree with you that Mangalore is very much to the south compared to Cambay. The reason why I brought the subject up was due to the mention of the weapons they used. Does anyone know how widely spread the use of the maze mentioned and the chakram was? Denee, you may have a point, but from the way it is written I think the author writes about a specific place. Attached Images

14th October 2007, 09:36 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	You could be right, but why does he write that they live fifteen days journey away, and the they fought against the Sultan? To me this sounds as if it is a homogenious clan/sub clan, belonging at a special place.

14th October 2007, 11:02 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jens, may i come in ? It appears that the name, besides yogi as sugested by Dennee, could also be Jogues, and they are also depicted in Imagens do Oriente, watercolour XLVI. Resuming the various period chronists in the Codice introduction, they were sort of philosophers, pilgrims and beggars, wearing very little clothes, either a couple furs or capes of mended pieces of cloth found in the trash. They covered their bodies with ashes ( curi ), which they considered sanctifying. Browsing on the term, we can read Della Vale ( 1586-1652 ) mentioning their settlement at Kadri near Mangalore ... which is very far from Cambay http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/phi...1:1:251.hobson However there is a missing link here, as so far only the guys quoted by Warthema were said to use weaponry. Maybe as you say, they would be a special sect. Fernando

14th October 2007, 11:14 PM	#3
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	I suppose that Jogues could also be a European transliteration, as many yogis/yogins could generally be considered philosophers/pilgrims/beggars. Any particular group might well be related by caste and geographical origin, it just may be that it is difficult to identify them with a particular spot or caste based on the name.

15th October 2007, 01:39 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	It could be that this weapon is older thand the foundation of Sikhs. As an example, just consider this: http://www.trocadero.com/faganarms/i...9916store.html

15th October 2007, 02:45 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Fernando, I think you are on to something right, as I too believe it to be a very old weapon. The strange thing is that the Sikh’s went on using it, but the other tribes/clans stopped using it. I also wonder why other early travellers does not mention it, as it must have been a very strange weapon to them.

17th October 2007, 01:49 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jens, Yesterday i have found the following definition of Chakram in a certain glossary: chakra sharp-edged metal disc used as a projectile weapon by medieval and early modern yogis; also yogic term for each of the seven centers of energy in the human body; from Sanskrit chakram (wheel). This is the link. http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/c...1851688&ss=fro All the best Fernando