A Unique Kattar?

Tomb22 · 12th October 2007, 02:02 AM

Here are the few blade pictures.
Regards
Tom

Jens Nordlunde · 14th October 2007, 04:51 PM

Here is a sword with the 'cobra' form of blade.

ward · 14th October 2007, 05:24 PM

here is another example of pierced work

rand · 14th October 2007, 06:00 PM

Observations of Toms Jamadhar:

The two flanges that extend from the handle of the jamadhar holding the blade between them attached with a riveting technique apear to have pierce work as do the sides of the handle. Looks as is it is mostly filled with an accumulation of dust, dirt and small debris.

The application of the gold overlay is a technique called koftgari where the metal is first cross hatched with a fine pointed tool called a "cherma", then overlaid with a gold wire that is tapped in place with a small hammer and punch, then it is exposed to a moderate heat after which it is polished with an agate rubber "Mohari" and cleaned with lime juice.

The design on the handle has a circular vegetal motif with circular shaped flowers with all leafs attached to a vine, the design on the blade has an open cartouche shape with open fan shaped flowers with some leafs seperate. Both have similar quality of koftgari work.

The quality of the chiseled line on the tiger, deer

The rivets are still hard to study from the photo's, but the appear to stand in higher relief than adjacent metal.

Summing up the above it suggests one craftman for the work on blade and one for the handle. This would be inline with most arms as there would have been a miner for ore, smelter, forger, blade maker, blade polisher, hilt maker, hilt and or blade art fabricater, scabbard maker.

Unable to find my reference as to defintion of koftgari but belive it to mean, " the beating of gold (koft)by a craftsman(gari)"

The above is only theory based on opinion and should be weighed against other viewpoints.

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 14th October 2007, 09:30 PM

Ward, you have a very nice katar hilt, is it possible that you can show it without a shine?
Rand, do you think the hilt and blade of the katar shown by Tom are of the same age - I don't.
Attached is a tabjore hilt.

ward · 14th October 2007, 10:05 PM

that was a preety awful pic shows what happens when you do things in a hurry

ward · 14th October 2007, 10:13 PM

Here is a different style. If i can get time I will take some more pics of different styles of katars

rand · 14th October 2007, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ward, you have a very nice katar hilt, is it possible that you can show it without a shine?
Rand, do you think the hilt and blade of the katar shown by Tom are of the same age - I don't.
Attached is a tabjore hilt.

Hey Jens,

The work on the hilt of Toms jamadhar is more inline with craftsmanship earlier than the blade, both in execution and design. My gut feeling is the blade is 19th C. and the hilt 17-18th C.

Where as on Wards jamadhar the edges of the leaves are done the same, the center of the leaves are also hollowed the same, the decoration on leaves also matches on the hilt and connecting flanges

rand

Jens Nordlunde · 15th October 2007, 12:29 PM

Hey Rand,

Yes I agree, the hilt is quite a bit older than the blade. Its an interesting katar, I wish I could examine it, hands on.

Ward, thank you very much for the new pictures, you have a lovely katar. How old do you estimate it to be? Is there any indication from where the blade is, other than from a sword?

Maybe a new thread should be started with south Indian katars, so we don’t drown Tom’s thread with other katars.

Tomb22 · 15th October 2007, 06:57 PM

Gentlemen:
Thank you for your input and consideration. It is most enlightening.

I love the pictures that you provided for comparison and demonstration. All of them very interesting and beautiful. Jens, the one with the tabjore hilt is exquisite. Regarding another thread, it is up to you guys as to what you think is best for the forum. As far as I am personally concerned, I don't mind at all the various pictures and discussion.

Based on Rand and Jen's thoughts about age of the hilt and blade and then looking at it up close, it does seem like two different times. The Tiger/deer seems a little finer drawn compared to the chisel of the hilt. Also, the dark background of the Tiger seems to be not only much more shallow than the hilt but also a different texture.

I am attaching a couple more pictures of the riveted flange area to try and show the rivets from a more horizontal perspective and a few others.

Concerning the piercings, it seems like they are a little different than the piercings on Ward's piece?? His and some of the others seem to be somewhat decorative. Mine doesn't seem decorative to me.

Here is my thought/question: Since the hilt appears to be chiseled, is it possible that the piercing is to facilitate the chiseling? What comes to mind is when someone is quarrying rock of some sort. They to drill holes and either put in explosives or water (to freeze and expand) to help break off the rock. Under this scenario, I was wondering if the piercing helped to make it easier to break of the metal?? Some of the piercings do not "pierce." They don't go all the way through.

Marius66 · 22nd July 2023, 05:16 PM

Thank's a lot for the precious comments Jim !!

I read about the chakra disc or cobra sword usually of good quality and associated to high rang persons.

I finally i receive it, here some pictures with close up,
I don't see any pattern but maybe something with the close pictures, crucible steel or just a classic steel structure ??

The hilt looks line the old Tanjore models and is riveted to the blade,
Can it be a genuine 17th century exemple even the blade ?
Or later assembled parts ??

Marius66 · 22nd July 2023, 08:04 PM

17th with this similar katar said to be from northern India and dating from the 17th century in post #15

Marius66 · 24th July 2023, 10:11 PM

Hello? This one 17th too 👍
( without chakra disk )

14th October 2007, 04:51 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Here is a sword with the 'cobra' form of blade. Attached Images

14th October 2007, 05:24 PM	#3
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	here is another example of pierced work Attached Images

14th October 2007, 06:00 PM	#4
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Observations of toms Jamadhar Observations of Toms Jamadhar: The two flanges that extend from the handle of the jamadhar holding the blade between them attached with a riveting technique apear to have pierce work as do the sides of the handle. Looks as is it is mostly filled with an accumulation of dust, dirt and small debris. The application of the gold overlay is a technique called koftgari where the metal is first cross hatched with a fine pointed tool called a "cherma", then overlaid with a gold wire that is tapped in place with a small hammer and punch, then it is exposed to a moderate heat after which it is polished with an agate rubber "Mohari" and cleaned with lime juice. The design on the handle has a circular vegetal motif with circular shaped flowers with all leafs attached to a vine, the design on the blade has an open cartouche shape with open fan shaped flowers with some leafs seperate. Both have similar quality of koftgari work. The quality of the chiseled line on the tiger, deer The rivets are still hard to study from the photo's, but the appear to stand in higher relief than adjacent metal. Summing up the above it suggests one craftman for the work on blade and one for the handle. This would be inline with most arms as there would have been a miner for ore, smelter, forger, blade maker, blade polisher, hilt maker, hilt and or blade art fabricater, scabbard maker. Unable to find my reference as to defintion of koftgari but belive it to mean, " the beating of gold (koft)by a craftsman(gari)" The above is only theory based on opinion and should be weighed against other viewpoints. rand

14th October 2007, 09:30 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ward, you have a very nice katar hilt, is it possible that you can show it without a shine? Rand, do you think the hilt and blade of the katar shown by Tom are of the same age - I don't. Attached is a tabjore hilt. Attached Images

14th October 2007, 10:05 PM	#6
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	that was a preety awful pic shows what happens when you do things in a hurry Attached Images

12th October 2007, 02:02 AM	#1
Tomb22 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 17	Here are the few blade pictures. Regards Tom Attached Images

14th October 2007, 10:13 PM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Here is a different style. If i can get time I will take some more pics of different styles of katars Attached Images

15th October 2007, 12:29 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hey Rand, Yes I agree, the hilt is quite a bit older than the blade. Its an interesting katar, I wish I could examine it, hands on. Ward, thank you very much for the new pictures, you have a lovely katar. How old do you estimate it to be? Is there any indication from where the blade is, other than from a sword? Maybe a new thread should be started with south Indian katars, so we don’t drown Tom’s thread with other katars.

15th October 2007, 06:57 PM	#10
Tomb22 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 17	Gentlemen: Thank you for your input and consideration. It is most enlightening. I love the pictures that you provided for comparison and demonstration. All of them very interesting and beautiful. Jens, the one with the tabjore hilt is exquisite. Regarding another thread, it is up to you guys as to what you think is best for the forum. As far as I am personally concerned, I don't mind at all the various pictures and discussion. Based on Rand and Jen's thoughts about age of the hilt and blade and then looking at it up close, it does seem like two different times. The Tiger/deer seems a little finer drawn compared to the chisel of the hilt. Also, the dark background of the Tiger seems to be not only much more shallow than the hilt but also a different texture. I am attaching a couple more pictures of the riveted flange area to try and show the rivets from a more horizontal perspective and a few others. Concerning the piercings, it seems like they are a little different than the piercings on Ward's piece?? His and some of the others seem to be somewhat decorative. Mine doesn't seem decorative to me. Here is my thought/question: Since the hilt appears to be chiseled, is it possible that the piercing is to facilitate the chiseling? What comes to mind is when someone is quarrying rock of some sort. They to drill holes and either put in explosives or water (to freeze and expand) to help break off the rock. Under this scenario, I was wondering if the piercing helped to make it easier to break of the metal?? Some of the piercings do not "pierce." They don't go all the way through. Attached Images

22nd July 2023, 05:16 PM	#11
Marius66 Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 131	Thank's a lot for the precious comments Jim !! I read about the chakra disc or cobra sword usually of good quality and associated to high rang persons. I finally i receive it, here some pictures with close up, I don't see any pattern but maybe something with the close pictures, crucible steel or just a classic steel structure ?? The hilt looks line the old Tanjore models and is riveted to the blade, Can it be a genuine 17th century exemple even the blade ? Or later assembled parts ?? Attached Images

22nd July 2023, 08:04 PM	#12
Marius66 Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 131	17th with this similar katar said to be from northern India and dating from the 17th century in post #15 Attached Images

24th July 2023, 10:11 PM	#13
Marius66 Member Join Date: Jun 2019 Posts: 131	Hello? This one 17th too 👍 ( without chakra disk ) Attached Images