A Unique Kattar?

[Tomb22]

Wow Jim, exciting comments ("If this proved to be pre 1799, which seems quite plausible, the potential for this weapon may be extremely important.") I would humbly ask what does extremely important potential mean to you?

One of the reasons for seeking out more informed comment is that I have spent sometime looking around the internet and have not seen anything similar. The closest has been the 2 Oriental Arms weapons labeled "Cobra Swords" and they had different hilts and non-serrated blades but, there were what I thought in my inexperienced eye remarkable similarities. Here they are:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1908
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1941

Now, being inexperienced, and meaning no disrespect, I do not know the quality of the history cited by Oriental Arms for these 2 weapons. But, they both seem very similar relative to what they call the "Indian straght blade bulged at the ricasso." What is a "ricasso?" In my case, from the "bulge" or the "disc" down, the blades seem very much from the same maker and/or design, particularly with the ridge down the center. In the blade that has a scabbard, it indicates a date possibly in the "1795-1804" area. I think that I agree with you concerning the specific "cobra" symbolism but, isn't the "widened disc" being "further down the blade from the hilt," more of a function of the type of hilt itself?

Please, in all of this discussion or responses with any of you, I am not asserting any type of "knowledge" about any of this. I am just sort of thinking out loud and putting out a few thoughts and questions that your comments trigger relative to what limited material that I have seen and read mostly from the internet. Certainly nothing like the superb books and the many years of experiences, you are drawing from.

Also, as previously noted, I have taken the lack of clear pictures demonstrating the various parts and qualities to heart and will have something better sometime this coming week, which hopefully will provide you all with more "accurate" images.

With the observations thus far, it does appear to be somewhat unique? Have any of you seen anything like it before? And, with the "court" or "royal" possibility would that lend credence to uniqueness? Or, was it similar to today where the masses seem to want what the elite have and so there may be many copies or imitators of design and style?

Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful and considered opinions.
Tom

[Tomb22]

Jim, I don't know how to put the quote in the little window. So, am just doing a copy and paste. You said,

"Concerning the serrated edges on the blade, although this feature affords the weapon a rather fearsome appearance, it has often been debated that it actually can prove counterproductive in various instances of use. This is likely the reason for more blades not being produced with this feature, and those with it are typically parade or court weapons..."

Would you be so kind as to point me in the direction of the debate on "serrated edges?" With my inexperience, it would seem to be productive if the blade got "stuck" so to speak in bone etc., that the serrations would make it a little easier to obtain a release through the "sawing" motion. I apologize for the graphic image this may conjure up.

And then, thinking out loud and with no experience in the making of a blade, it would seem that producing a serration would be an extremely labor intensive project and if that is true, could that be the reason there are so few of them?? Except maybe from a royal or person of the court that could afford the cost of the extra labor?

Thanks again for your input and courtesy. I am now off to find out more about "Tipu Sultan weapons." What a great pool of knowledge and experience that resides on this forum.

Regards
Tom

[ward]

Here is a some what similar katar sereted edges armor piercing tip well weighted and heavily pierced. This one is a straight killing weapon and I dought you would confuse it with a parade piece.

[Tomb22]

Hi Ward,
I think that you could call that a, "lean mean killing machine!" What a wonderful piece of work. I wouldn't want someone chasing me down the road with that. Thank you for sharing. That is the first serrated blade that I have seen other than mine on this type of weapon. What are the dimensions? The bulge or "disc" as Jim calls it, and I bow to his expertise, on mine is 2.4 inches. I also note the ridge on your blade. I am guessing that has something to do with increasing the strength of the blade? Also, would this be from the same general area? Due to the sort of similar blade shape?
Excuse my lack of knowledge but what is the proper term for the suberb craftsman that create these blades from lumps of metal?

That is an excellent picture of the piercings. They are the same (piercings)on mine except where the koftgari designs are. Does anyone know why they did these piercings? What are their purpose or function. And Rand, I see more of what you mean by the close ups so that we all can get the "picture."

Regards
Tom

[ward]

total length is 23 inches the cricular section is 3 inches wide probaly 17th century probaly same area of origin as yours northern India. Piercing is done as decoration and yes chiseling is usually earlier. later they went to acid etching.
I think yours is 19th century just opinion,beutiful piece.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Tom,
By 'important potential' I meant that if indeed this is pre-Seringpatam (before 1799) and with the tiger allegory, it could very well be a piece associated with Tipu Sultans court. Although admittedly ambitious, there is always the possibility. Naturally, it is also possible that the weapon could be from the 19th century as Ward suggests, and numerous weapons commemorating the defeat of Tipu were produced in the decades after the event.

Incidentally, the ricasso is the root of the blade just below the guard, also on sabres referring to the blunt area in that region where the edge terminates.

Your points concerning serrated edges being extremely labor intensive are quite valid, and may be considered a factor in the small numbers of them found. While of course these would be more difficult to produce, they are equally as difficult to maintain as sharpening would be very difficult. The discussions on these blades have occurred over many years on these forums, and unfortunately many of these are not presently accessible as they are in the archives, which seem to be unavailable. I also wish I had access to my notes which included some of the points made as the dynamics of these blades were discussed.

What I do recall is that in Pant (p.56-57, "Indian Arms and Armour") he notes that serrated blades had been found unsuitable for use against armor, and abandoned use of such blades by the late 17th c. Was is unclear is obviously what type of armour..obviously no sword blade was of any use in striking armor, and if he referred to the heavy quilted armor, even that was greatly resistant to cuts. It seems that it was noted in another discussion that the serration in a slashing cut caused uneven contact that interfered with the cut. I have always deferred on these 'dynamics' discussions to the martial arts guys, who actually test things etc.

Wards katar certainly looks menacing, and of course deadly. It is quite unusual in that the serration and the disc are not typically seen on these. It may well be from northern India and as noted, could not be mistaken for a parade piece. It appears of standard katar size, and of steel. It is of course of form intended for armor piercing, and close quarters combat in design. I would concede that the serration would afford effective cutting action in both thrust and withdrawal in concept. I am somewhat surprised this feature was not more widely used, but for the thoughts we have discussed on the practicality.

Your katar is profusely decorated, and of course presumably for court use as discussed. It is important to note that in actuality these transversely gripped weapons, the katar and pata, in southern and central India were used in slashing cuts, with thrusting very much discouraged. As I have mentioned, the serrated edge has somewhat disputed effectiveness in this use, so I would hold to the suggestion that the feature on your blade would be more to visual effect. In court, clearly the objective was to impress, and this weapon certainly does do that. Returning to Tipu, and at the risk of being overspeculative, I would point out that he was quite the showman, if the look at his elaborately uniformed armies etc. The tiger attacking his prey seems an obvious allegory, as Tipu fashioned himself "The Tiger of Mysore", and the animal victim symbolizing his unfortunate enemy.

It does seem that most Indian weapons are arbitrarily presumed 19th century mostly because it is relatively safe to do so, and indeed the huge volume of weapons collected in this period provide plausible provenance. However, as Elgood has noted, it is not unreasonable to find many examples, especially the higher quality ones, to be earlier and in unusually good condition .

I would like to say that I very much admire your courteous and respectful demeanor in your postings, and it is indeed a pleasure talking with you. ...not to mention the fabulous weapon you have posted for us to discuss.
There is a great deal of knowledge here as you have noted, and we all continue to learn together, so thank you for joining us!!!

With all best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

In further assessment of this most interesting weapon, it has been suggested to me that the hilt seems incongruous to the blade and is quite likely considerably older than the blade. The style of the hilt itself seems to correspond with katars from Tanjore and Srirangam from 17th and 18th centuries, with the arched cup shape on the base of the hilt and the highly decorated, flared parallel bars holding the transverse grips, also quite similar to these.

It seems that often in observing a weapon, one can sometimes be remiss in failing to see such details if they are caught up in the appearance of the weapon overall.....at least in my case here. It is important to remember that even weapons that have been reconfigured or remounted are typically not diminished in importance if that event takes place during its working life, including ceremonial or parade items.

While the potentially earlier hilt has been joined with a most interesting blade that as mentioned could be somehow associated to the Mysori weapons of Tipu, it might also be commemorative and of 19th c. Even after Tipu's defeat at Seringpatam, there were considerable examples of such weapons that were involved in diplomatic affairs for some time into the 19th c. It would be difficult to determine exactly what manner this might apply to this weapon, but considering the possibilities for the components themselves, the historical quality remains.

I have thought more on the holes also, and though the thought of attaching mail sounded interesting ( it seems this is sometimes done on kampilans in the Philippines), it does not seem plausible here. It does seem unusual for these holes drilled in rather unaligned appearance to be there by design, but I am wondering if they might be of a size that might be for screws or pins to attach a guard. Many of the Tanjore katars had a shell type guard that was attached at about this location and flared up to cover the hand.

[Tomb22]

Thanks Jim for the kind words. I am just grateful to be here and be able to soak up the knowledge that is here. I am going to let the serrated thoughts go until I can look at some more discussion. I appreciate the concept of the martial arts folks actually using these kinds of blades in different ways to determine their functionality and effectiveness.

The 'Important potential" seems exciting. Am cautiously looking forward to more thoughts, discussion and information. I did go look up Tipu Sultan. He seemed like a fairly benevolent ruler. I was impressed with the quality of the sword that was auctioned through Southeby's around 2005/2006. That was a really beautiful piece.

Thanks for the points about "ricasso" etc.. My excitement for this forum continues to grow - for an information junkie like me.

I like the "Tiger" allegory. I will upload a few more pictures I was able to take with my daughter's camera. Still not exactly like I want but a little better for detail. The tiger is on both sides of course, and on one side the mouth is open, ready to bite. On the other side, the mouth is firmly attached to the rump of the dear.

I am still learning how to use the forum software for replys etc., I don't know where this will end up in the chain as I replied to one of your earlier posts. So, just to make sure that they don't get overlooked, I will upload the pictures with the last post. I will send this one now to experiment.

Thanks again for your comments and thoughts.
Regards
Tom