A Unique Kattar?

katana · 9th October 2007, 03:59 PM

Hi Tom,
Beautiful Katar

There is the possibillity that the small holes in the hilt is where chain mail or leather protection was fixed, usually by small metal rings. If this is the case it surely suggests that not only was this intended for use, but also the owner had very high status.

David

Tomb22 · 9th October 2007, 04:34 PM

David,
Thanks for the input. If you look at the 3rd picture down, the one showing the Tiger and hilt - Then focus on the area where the 3 rivets are, you will see many little tiny dark spots all through out that dark area. Those are the piercings or "drill holes" as I call them. They go completely through the metal. They are also in and all through the dark areas of the protective bars. They are so small and so uniform, that I could think of no other reason then making the piece lighter. But, then as my friend from the other forum indicated, he thought that it might be part of the "decoration."

I know they are hard to see in these pictures and I will try and see if I can get a better close up. My camera doesn't do as well as I want with closeups so, will probably borrow a friends.

One of the fun things about this group is that with so many sharp people, thoughts and ideas pop out that I might not have ever thought about so, I really appreciate all comments as I am here to learn.

Thanks again,
Tom

rand · 9th October 2007, 09:14 PM

Hello Tom,

When determining the age of an object such as your katar that was in use for centuries, the style of ornamentation, quality of the lines, color of gold, blade all come into study. To make an accurate assessment very focused, clear and sharp images are needed.

For example: Your dagger has pierce work on the handle, but it is impossible to tell from the photo what shape the holes are or what type of chasing it has done.

Reguarding the gold overlay on the handle: The focus and lack of a macro photo showing great detail only allow a guess based on general style.

From my perspective the circular motifs on the handle hint at 18th century, pierce was more used in the 17-18th century all though some of the finest examples are 19th century. The color of the gold appears to be high carot, that suggests 18th century of earlier. The lines of the vegetal motif look a little irregular (may just be wear and lack of focus makes this very difficult to determine) and that hints 18-19th century.

If were to average this out an approximate 18th century time period would be one opinion. What you really need are very focused sharpes images(including a few macro shots) of all aspects fo you jamadhar.

rand

Tomb22 · 9th October 2007, 09:53 PM

Hi Rand,
Yes, I can see that there is so much that goes into understanding these great blades. I have enjoyed the camera work for the really good close-ups on some of the threads. I have mentioned to myself and others for awhile that I need to get some better pictures. I will do so in the next couple of days and return. That will help for better viewing and discovery. I appreciate the instruction and will get it done.
Thanks
Tom

Jim McDougall · 10th October 2007, 04:26 AM

Hi Tom,
Thank you so much for the very kind comments!

which are very much appreciated. I also really appreciate your posting this great example of Indian weaponry for discussion. Weapons such as this are great incentive to really hit the books, and present great opportunity for learning more on the weapons of India.

Concerning the serrated edges on the blade, although this feature affords the weapon a rather fearsome appearance, it has often been debated that it actually can prove counterproductive in various instances of use. This is likely the reason for more blades not being produced with this feature, and those with it are typically parade or court weapons, and the nagan theme often associated with many of them. In the case of the 'cobra' type blades, the presumed 'hood' is congruent with the hilt which would be considered the head. In your example the widened disc is further down the blade from the hilt, which is why it seems to disqualify the 'cobra' symbolism, yet the wavy serrations may still carry the nagan theme.

In viewing the interesting scene on the disc which includes a tiger, it would be quite worthwhile to consider the Tipu Sultan weapons, in which he used the tiger often allegorically in many themes and forms of symbolism. If this proved to be pre 1799, which seems quite plausible, the potential for this weapon may be extremely important.

Rand has offered some outstanding observations in trying to establish the proper date presumed in these weapons, which can truly be difficult as the traditional forms remained in use for centuries.

Very good suggestion on the pierced holes for attachment of chain link armour by David .I honestly had not thought of this for an Indian piece, but could well be valid. The protection for the hand was of considerable concern as evidenced by the elaborate hand guards often seen on Tanjore items, and of course the development of the gauntlet sword (pata). While I cannot recall ever seeing such attachment of mail on a weapon, it of course was the manner of attachment for the aventail on the helmet (kulah khud).

All very best regards,
Jim

Tomb22 · 10th October 2007, 08:14 AM

Wow Jim, exciting comments ("If this proved to be pre 1799, which seems quite plausible, the potential for this weapon may be extremely important.") I would humbly ask what does extremely important potential mean to you?

One of the reasons for seeking out more informed comment is that I have spent sometime looking around the internet and have not seen anything similar. The closest has been the 2 Oriental Arms weapons labeled "Cobra Swords" and they had different hilts and non-serrated blades but, there were what I thought in my inexperienced eye remarkable similarities. Here they are:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1908
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1941

Now, being inexperienced, and meaning no disrespect, I do not know the quality of the history cited by Oriental Arms for these 2 weapons. But, they both seem very similar relative to what they call the "Indian straght blade bulged at the ricasso." What is a "ricasso?" In my case, from the "bulge" or the "disc" down, the blades seem very much from the same maker and/or design, particularly with the ridge down the center. In the blade that has a scabbard, it indicates a date possibly in the "1795-1804" area. I think that I agree with you concerning the specific "cobra" symbolism but, isn't the "widened disc" being "further down the blade from the hilt," more of a function of the type of hilt itself?

Please, in all of this discussion or responses with any of you, I am not asserting any type of "knowledge" about any of this. I am just sort of thinking out loud and putting out a few thoughts and questions that your comments trigger relative to what limited material that I have seen and read mostly from the internet. Certainly nothing like the superb books and the many years of experiences, you are drawing from.

Also, as previously noted, I have taken the lack of clear pictures demonstrating the various parts and qualities to heart and will have something better sometime this coming week, which hopefully will provide you all with more "accurate" images.

With the observations thus far, it does appear to be somewhat unique? Have any of you seen anything like it before? And, with the "court" or "royal" possibility would that lend credence to uniqueness? Or, was it similar to today where the masses seem to want what the elite have and so there may be many copies or imitators of design and style?

Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful and considered opinions.
Tom

Tomb22 · 10th October 2007, 06:35 PM

Jim, I don't know how to put the quote in the little window. So, am just doing a copy and paste. You said,

"Concerning the serrated edges on the blade, although this feature affords the weapon a rather fearsome appearance, it has often been debated that it actually can prove counterproductive in various instances of use. This is likely the reason for more blades not being produced with this feature, and those with it are typically parade or court weapons..."

Would you be so kind as to point me in the direction of the debate on "serrated edges?" With my inexperience, it would seem to be productive if the blade got "stuck" so to speak in bone etc., that the serrations would make it a little easier to obtain a release through the "sawing" motion. I apologize for the graphic image this may conjure up.

And then, thinking out loud and with no experience in the making of a blade, it would seem that producing a serration would be an extremely labor intensive project and if that is true, could that be the reason there are so few of them?? Except maybe from a royal or person of the court that could afford the cost of the extra labor?

Thanks again for your input and courtesy. I am now off to find out more about "Tipu Sultan weapons." What a great pool of knowledge and experience that resides on this forum.

Regards
Tom

9th October 2007, 04:34 PM	#2
Tomb22 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 17	Thanks for "coolness" David, Thanks for the input. If you look at the 3rd picture down, the one showing the Tiger and hilt - Then focus on the area where the 3 rivets are, you will see many little tiny dark spots all through out that dark area. Those are the piercings or "drill holes" as I call them. They go completely through the metal. They are also in and all through the dark areas of the protective bars. They are so small and so uniform, that I could think of no other reason then making the piece lighter. But, then as my friend from the other forum indicated, he thought that it might be part of the "decoration." I know they are hard to see in these pictures and I will try and see if I can get a better close up. My camera doesn't do as well as I want with closeups so, will probably borrow a friends. One of the fun things about this group is that with so many sharp people, thoughts and ideas pop out that I might not have ever thought about so, I really appreciate all comments as I am here to learn. Thanks again, Tom

9th October 2007, 09:14 PM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 539	Determining Age Hello Tom, When determining the age of an object such as your katar that was in use for centuries, the style of ornamentation, quality of the lines, color of gold, blade all come into study. To make an accurate assessment very focused, clear and sharp images are needed. For example: Your dagger has pierce work on the handle, but it is impossible to tell from the photo what shape the holes are or what type of chasing it has done. Reguarding the gold overlay on the handle: The focus and lack of a macro photo showing great detail only allow a guess based on general style. From my perspective the circular motifs on the handle hint at 18th century, pierce was more used in the 17-18th century all though some of the finest examples are 19th century. The color of the gold appears to be high carot, that suggests 18th century of earlier. The lines of the vegetal motif look a little irregular (may just be wear and lack of focus makes this very difficult to determine) and that hints 18-19th century. If were to average this out an approximate 18th century time period would be one opinion. What you really need are very focused sharpes images(including a few macro shots) of all aspects fo you jamadhar. rand

10th October 2007, 08:14 AM	#6
Tomb22 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 17	Is it unique? Wow Jim, exciting comments ("If this proved to be pre 1799, which seems quite plausible, the potential for this weapon may be extremely important.") I would humbly ask what does extremely important potential mean to you? One of the reasons for seeking out more informed comment is that I have spent sometime looking around the internet and have not seen anything similar. The closest has been the 2 Oriental Arms weapons labeled "Cobra Swords" and they had different hilts and non-serrated blades but, there were what I thought in my inexperienced eye remarkable similarities. Here they are: http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1908 http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1941 Now, being inexperienced, and meaning no disrespect, I do not know the quality of the history cited by Oriental Arms for these 2 weapons. But, they both seem very similar relative to what they call the "Indian straght blade bulged at the ricasso." What is a "ricasso?" In my case, from the "bulge" or the "disc" down, the blades seem very much from the same maker and/or design, particularly with the ridge down the center. In the blade that has a scabbard, it indicates a date possibly in the "1795-1804" area. I think that I agree with you concerning the specific "cobra" symbolism but, isn't the "widened disc" being "further down the blade from the hilt," more of a function of the type of hilt itself? Please, in all of this discussion or responses with any of you, I am not asserting any type of "knowledge" about any of this. I am just sort of thinking out loud and putting out a few thoughts and questions that your comments trigger relative to what limited material that I have seen and read mostly from the internet. Certainly nothing like the superb books and the many years of experiences, you are drawing from. Also, as previously noted, I have taken the lack of clear pictures demonstrating the various parts and qualities to heart and will have something better sometime this coming week, which hopefully will provide you all with more "accurate" images. With the observations thus far, it does appear to be somewhat unique? Have any of you seen anything like it before? And, with the "court" or "royal" possibility would that lend credence to uniqueness? Or, was it similar to today where the masses seem to want what the elite have and so there may be many copies or imitators of design and style? Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful and considered opinions. Tom

10th October 2007, 06:35 PM	#7
Tomb22 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 17	Another question/thought for Jim Jim, I don't know how to put the quote in the little window. So, am just doing a copy and paste. You said, "Concerning the serrated edges on the blade, although this feature affords the weapon a rather fearsome appearance, it has often been debated that it actually can prove counterproductive in various instances of use. This is likely the reason for more blades not being produced with this feature, and those with it are typically parade or court weapons..." Would you be so kind as to point me in the direction of the debate on "serrated edges?" With my inexperience, it would seem to be productive if the blade got "stuck" so to speak in bone etc., that the serrations would make it a little easier to obtain a release through the "sawing" motion. I apologize for the graphic image this may conjure up. And then, thinking out loud and with no experience in the making of a blade, it would seem that producing a serration would be an extremely labor intensive project and if that is true, could that be the reason there are so few of them?? Except maybe from a royal or person of the court that could afford the cost of the extra labor? Thanks again for your input and courtesy. I am now off to find out more about "Tipu Sultan weapons." What a great pool of knowledge and experience that resides on this forum. Regards Tom

9th October 2007, 03:59 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Tom, Beautiful Katar There is the possibillity that the small holes in the hilt is where chain mail or leather protection was fixed, usually by small metal rings. If this is the case it surely suggests that not only was this intended for use, but also the owner had very high status. David

9th October 2007, 09:53 PM	#4
Tomb22 Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 17	Hi Rand, Yes, I can see that there is so much that goes into understanding these great blades. I have enjoyed the camera work for the really good close-ups on some of the threads. I have mentioned to myself and others for awhile that I need to get some better pictures. I will do so in the next couple of days and return. That will help for better viewing and discovery. I appreciate the instruction and will get it done. Thanks Tom

10th October 2007, 04:26 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,200	Hi Tom, Thank you so much for the very kind comments! which are very much appreciated. I also really appreciate your posting this great example of Indian weaponry for discussion. Weapons such as this are great incentive to really hit the books, and present great opportunity for learning more on the weapons of India. Concerning the serrated edges on the blade, although this feature affords the weapon a rather fearsome appearance, it has often been debated that it actually can prove counterproductive in various instances of use. This is likely the reason for more blades not being produced with this feature, and those with it are typically parade or court weapons, and the nagan theme often associated with many of them. In the case of the 'cobra' type blades, the presumed 'hood' is congruent with the hilt which would be considered the head. In your example the widened disc is further down the blade from the hilt, which is why it seems to disqualify the 'cobra' symbolism, yet the wavy serrations may still carry the nagan theme. In viewing the interesting scene on the disc which includes a tiger, it would be quite worthwhile to consider the Tipu Sultan weapons, in which he used the tiger often allegorically in many themes and forms of symbolism. If this proved to be pre 1799, which seems quite plausible, the potential for this weapon may be extremely important. Rand has offered some outstanding observations in trying to establish the proper date presumed in these weapons, which can truly be difficult as the traditional forms remained in use for centuries. Very good suggestion on the pierced holes for attachment of chain link armour by David .I honestly had not thought of this for an Indian piece, but could well be valid. The protection for the hand was of considerable concern as evidenced by the elaborate hand guards often seen on Tanjore items, and of course the development of the gauntlet sword (pata). While I cannot recall ever seeing such attachment of mail on a weapon, it of course was the manner of attachment for the aventail on the helmet (kulah khud). All very best regards, Jim