Manual del Baratero - A Review

[LabanTayo]

if i remember correctly, blades were present in the philippines before the spanish raped the philippines.
(sorry everyone on the forum from spain, this is not directed towards you or spain in the present. i dont hold you accountable for what happened 400 hundred years ago. but, at least the spanish introduced Paella!!!! mmm mmm good ).
so, did the spanish steal filipino techniques, or vice versa? the malay / indo / philippine archipelego was a blade oriented society before spanish/dutch/portugese/british arrival. the philippines may have adopted some spanish fighting techniques and terminology, but i have never seen a spanish fencer/fighter move like filipino arnisador/fighter.

but as for your WWII comment, not all philippine fighting arts adopted the japanese stances. the ones that did, did so, because the filipinos were entranced by foriegn martial arts and had to adopt the japanese postures to make it more "fascinating" to the filipinos. but if you do your research and actually study with these systems, you will find the "true" filipino martial arts hidden within the system.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Laban,

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"...not all philippine fighting arts adopted the japanese stances. the ones that did, did so, because the filipinos were entranced by foriegn martial arts and had to adopt the japanese postures to make it more "fascinating" to the filipinos. but if you do your research and actually study with these systems, you will find the "true" filipino martial arts hidden within the system."
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Good point. I am aware that you have old arnis, if I remeber correctly, and the new.

Some 20yrs ago, a highly ranked karateka friend of mine went to your country and studied Arnis. He became fairly good at it after a short time because all his karate movements fitted in. He did mention the old style, but according to his observations it was very much in the minority for a number of reasons, including training methodology. I don't know how it is these days.

I don't think that any combative art can remain immune to foreign influences for long, unless it is practiced in a sheltered environment. The very fact that one's life is at stake compels change if the original techniques are inadequate or too difficult to teach/learn. Even karate has picked up a fair bit of Thai and English boxing.

Cheers
Chris

[Frank]

Chris,

I got interested in navajas after reading Sevillian stee. Really cool knives. Did you read it, what did you think of it and where can I buy a navaja. I live in Australia.

Best wishes
Frank

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Frank

Chris,

I got interested in navajas after reading Sevillian stee. Really cool knives. Did you read it, what did you think of it and where can I buy a navaja. I live in Australia.

Best wishes
Frank

Hi Frank,

1. I have read that book and do not think that it is the kind of work that serious collectors or historians of knives would use as a reference.

If you want to become acquainted with navajas you should read the works of the Spanish authority, Rafael Martinez del Peral y Forton. Unfortunately most of his works have as yet not been translated into English, save one: "Navajas Antiguas - Las Mejores Piezas de Coleccion", a magnificent book of 237 colour photo plates, with captions in Sanish-English and illustrating navajas from the era in which they were used in earnest. The standard reference on the subject is "La Navaja Espanola Antigua" by the same author.

1.1 You can buy Forton's books here (they sell all the others that are not listed at the site):

http://www.navajasantiguas.com/index1.html


2. Depends what you mean by a navaja; In Spanish that word applies to any folding knife. If you mean specifically those legendary clasp knifes that were used as both tools and weapons, then they went out of use over a 100 years ago and unless you have one made to order or go to an antique shop, you'll have trouble buying one. What's being sold these day as navajas are low quality thematic interpretations that only vaguely resemble the knives of the past and are aimed solely at the souvenier market - A bit like the wall-hanger stainless steel junk swords from Toledo. Only traditionalists and collectors in Spain bother with real navajas, their design and size having rendered them obsolete. I am not aware of anybody importing navajas into Australia, but there could be someone.

2.1 One notable exception to the above is the range offered by the Spanish cutler Exposito. Whilst his knives only loosely resemble those used up to 1900, being utilitarian in design, they are the last readily available examples of traditional Spanish folders, the kind that largely disappeared by 1970. Stay away from their `Serie Albacete' (the ones in the wooden display cases) since these are intended as souvenirs.The prices of Exposito knives are reasonable and the quality is fairly good.

You can buy one here:

http://www.cuchilleria-exposito.com/.../principal.htm

2.2 If you want to buy a good replica try here:

http://www.knivesart.com/web/index.html

Or for a real antique try here:
http://www.knivescollection.com/cata..._antichi_e.asp

Cheers
Chris

[Frank]

Chris

Thanks for all that info. I have to start taking Spanish lesons (lol)

You say that "fighting with navajas came to an end in Spain over a hundred years ago". What proof have you of this.

Frank

[Chris Evans]

Hi Frank,

The use of navajas started to decline sharply from around 1868 and by 1900 its usage was over. After that date a small number of new generation utilitarian folding knives based on the old navajas (as still made by Exposito) continued to be manufactured, but the demand and output remained relatively small.

We know this from cutlery industry figures re production and importation of navajas. This is a fact beyond debate, for to argue otherwise it would have to be demonstrated where the navajas that were supposedly being used came from.

Something that is not widely known is that during the halcyon days of the navaja, the mid 1800s, the majority were made in France and not in Spain (so much for the famous Santolios and Sevillanas!) - By that time the Spanish cutlery industry was in severe and irreversible decline.

Because of this, we know the number of navajas imported into Spain with great accuracy. Between 1850 and 1862 an average of a million and a quarter of such navajas were brought into Spain annually, yet by 1869 this figure fell to a paltry 690,000 and there was no increase in the local manufacture to make up the difference. By 1900 the Spanish cutlery industry almost disappeared and there was no importation.

So any talk of Spain having retained a navaja culture flies in face of hard facts.

Cheers
Chris

[Frank]

Chris

I came across someone who showed me a real old navaja. he said it was made in 1860. It was large all right and with a wide blade but was very slow and hard to open. Had it been sharp you would have to be real careful opening it and closing it. Didn't feel right, or not as right as my Voyager, kinda clumsy. He said he paid $1000 for it.

I like to know how they opened them in a fight. This one was so slow to open that I would have had to run away to buy time. My Voyager just flicks open. Were they all like this?

Frank

[Renegade Conquistador]

Everyone,

I'm not trying to jack this thread, but I felt compelled to respond to some of LabanTayo's comments below:

Originally Posted by LabanTayo

so, did the spanish steal filipino techniques, or vice versa?

The influence was possibly mutual, as is so often the case.

the malay / indo / philippine archipelego was a blade oriented society before spanish/dutch/portugese/british arrival. the philippines may have adopted some spanish fighting techniques and terminology, but i have never seen a spanish fencer/fighter move like filipino arnisador/fighter.

Given that there are no surviving schools of Spanish fencing (either civilian or military), I would be most curious to know how many actual "Spanish fencer/fighters" you have "seen".

There are, of course, modern classical fencers who are working on reconstructions of the civilian Spanish school of rapier fencing (the destreza of Carranza, that is), but that is not a method which was likely to have seen much (if any) use in the Philippines. No, the Spanish soldiers serving there would have made use of a more practical form of cut-and-thrust swordplay, with corresponding weapons like the bilbo (a type of broadsword with a rapier-like shell hilt). It's also worth noting that British officers observed Pampangan troops in Spanish service equipped with such swords.

As for a possible relationship between the Spanish military esgrima (fencing) and native Filipino blade methods, the similarities are certainly there. FMA's redonda resembles the moulinet (or molinello) of Western saber work. FMA's "wing block" looks like saber fencing's #1 parry (prime), while the "dropstick" appears equivalent to parry #2 (seconde). In FMA, attacks to the leg are met with what European broadsword and military saber men call "slipping" or "shifting the leg". In both FMA and European cut-and-thrust fencing, cuts are categorized by angles--vertical, horizontal, and diagonal. Are these things the result of cross-cultural influence, or parallel evolution?

As for "terminology", it's interesting to note that about 65 percent of the technical terms used in all eskrima styles are Spanish-derived, which seems somewhat odd when one considers that most Filipinos do not speak Spanish.

Then again, perhaps it's not so odd after all--Romy Macapagal, the current archivist for Kalis Ilustrisimo, has declared that Kalis Ilustrisimo is a full 40% Spanish-derived.

And other FMAists, like Dr. Ned Nepangue and Celestino Macachor, are postulating new theories concerning the origins of eskrima and arnis--the crux of their argument is that they are a result of a synthesis of Spanish military fencing, and native blade arts. The main goal for creating this hybrid form was to help defend the Spanish-occupied areas against Moro piratical incursions.

FWIW.

Best,

R C