Burmese, East Asian Mak Chopper?

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 10:25 PM

Uh! OK Tim..........that got my attention!!

not votive!!!
Back to where we left off.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 7th October 2007, 02:33 AM

Tim,
I found some more data in Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that supports what you have just noted and that smaller size does not eliminate the potential for sacrificial use. On p.70 he notes a 'matchu' sacrificial axe with a heavy cleaver like blade of 8". Another weapon shown as a sacrificial scythe has certain comparability and is also from southern India. There seems to be widely varying terminology depending on dialect and region.

Concerning the copper, on p.67, Elgood discusses iron and steel weapons and that thier polluting qualities are often mitigated by the use of copper or brass on the hilts.

It does seem that weaponry of Nepal and Bengal in many cases cross influence with of course diffusion to southern India also typical, as with most weapon forms in the subcontinent.

Tim Simmons · 7th October 2007, 03:18 PM

Thanks for bringing that to my attention Jim. There is also mention of a bill hook with a flexible blade on page 75 The blade is flexible so to activate jingles attached to the blade. Not to say this is the inspiration of the example I post but does hint at variation.
Further to Elgoods writings which are more concerned with courtly or "high church" in these matters. We should bare in mind the many aboriginals and more backwoods people like the Khond where in the first half of the 19th century the sacrifice of some poor devil is more than possible, having there head pulled back and throat cut

far from any high temple. The implements used may not be of a standard form one is often looking for. The crenellation on blades used outside of "high culture" could be a representation of the jingles on the temple blades? The jingles being a cleansing part of the ceremony in the temple.

I believe there is the occasionnal unpleasant sacrifice made now in modern times by what I imagine as rather disturbed devotees.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-7-2002_pg4_16

katana · 7th October 2007, 05:13 PM

I am not so certain this knife would be very efficient for cutting throats. Ideally the edge would be on the opposite side (where the crenallations are) so that the blade cuts as it is drawn across the throat (with knife wielder behind the victim) A short handle would also give better control than the longer handle on this knife.

The 'long' handle on the knife would suggest two-handed use, however the small, light blade would not require this. It could be that the handle gives 'length' to the knife to reach its target.

Below is a 'modern' cane knife, blade is 20.5 cms, could Tim's knife be a ritual agricultural tool. Harvest time in many cultures is surrounded by ritual, ceremony and superstition .....

Tim Simmons · 7th October 2007, 06:24 PM

Yes an expensive special knife for a special costly harvest. The handle has only room for one hand and very sharp. I have not tried to cut any throats with a concave or convex blade so that is in question for me.

Jim McDougall · 7th October 2007, 07:19 PM

Hi Tim,
Great deductive reasoning there!! I'm right with ya! The idea of vestigial representation for the jingles in the crenallations makes a lot of sense and a more rudimentary example for 'field' use , cf. dress sword vs. combat sword.
Like you, throat cutting and such grim matters is the least enjoyable facet of consideration in examining the plausible function of this piece for me. I do agree with Katana in his observation that an edge on the inside curve would seem more functional for such purpose. The sharpened outer edge suggests use in a chopping fashion rather than a drawcut.

Returning to the size of this weapon again, it seems that in Asian regions the primary weapon was typically much as in many aboriginal areas, either the bow and arrow or spear. Edged weapons were typically secondary and used in close quarters melee. While not suggesting this piece would be in that category, it is simply a suggestion for consideration overall since we have examined so many aspects of the ceremonial /sacrificial potential due to similarity to ram dao. It would seem that ram dao, like the kora and other chopping type weapons, had combat counterparts, and like the kukri, could be used as a utilitarian implement as well. In discussions some time ago, as I mentioned concerning the Afghan lohar, the smaller size of these did not dismiss possible combative use especially in close quarters or as with Afghans in stealth attacks with easily concealed weapons. The British occupiers took a dim view of tribesmen carrying weapons.

Something else that we need to look at is the interesting symbols or characters deeply stamped in the blade. Do these coincide with others that might be found on examples from suggested regions, like the knife you included earlier? What might these represent?

Tim Simmons · 7th October 2007, 07:31 PM

Jim. It is too light to chop. That is why a went with the African razor it is like a razor. The Nepalese Ram Dao link is too much of a match to think of Africa any more for me right now. It would make an excellent slashing secondary weapon. Held with the blade facing you I think it could do a serious unpleasantness to man or beast. Or the other way for that matters.

7th October 2007, 03:18 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Thanks for bringing that to my attention Jim. There is also mention of a bill hook with a flexible blade on page 75 The blade is flexible so to activate jingles attached to the blade. Not to say this is the inspiration of the example I post but does hint at variation. Further to Elgoods writings which are more concerned with courtly or "high church" in these matters. We should bare in mind the many aboriginals and more backwoods people like the Khond where in the first half of the 19th century the sacrifice of some poor devil is more than possible, having there head pulled back and throat cut far from any high temple. The implements used may not be of a standard form one is often looking for. The crenellation on blades used outside of "high culture" could be a representation of the jingles on the temple blades? The jingles being a cleansing part of the ceremony in the temple. I believe there is the occasionnal unpleasant sacrifice made now in modern times by what I imagine as rather disturbed devotees. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-7-2002_pg4_16 Last edited by Tim Simmons; 7th October 2007 at 03:44 PM.

7th October 2007, 05:13 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I am not so certain this knife would be very efficient for cutting throats. Ideally the edge would be on the opposite side (where the crenallations are) so that the blade cuts as it is drawn across the throat (with knife wielder behind the victim) A short handle would also give better control than the longer handle on this knife. The 'long' handle on the knife would suggest two-handed use, however the small, light blade would not require this. It could be that the handle gives 'length' to the knife to reach its target. Below is a 'modern' cane knife, blade is 20.5 cms, could Tim's knife be a ritual agricultural tool. Harvest time in many cultures is surrounded by ritual, ceremony and superstition ..... Attached Images

6th October 2007, 10:25 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Uh! OK Tim..........that got my attention!! not votive!!! Back to where we left off. All the best, Jim

7th October 2007, 02:33 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Tim, I found some more data in Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that supports what you have just noted and that smaller size does not eliminate the potential for sacrificial use. On p.70 he notes a 'matchu' sacrificial axe with a heavy cleaver like blade of 8". Another weapon shown as a sacrificial scythe has certain comparability and is also from southern India. There seems to be widely varying terminology depending on dialect and region. Concerning the copper, on p.67, Elgood discusses iron and steel weapons and that thier polluting qualities are often mitigated by the use of copper or brass on the hilts. It does seem that weaponry of Nepal and Bengal in many cases cross influence with of course diffusion to southern India also typical, as with most weapon forms in the subcontinent.

7th October 2007, 06:24 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Yes an expensive special knife for a special costly harvest. The handle has only room for one hand and very sharp. I have not tried to cut any throats with a concave or convex blade so that is in question for me.

7th October 2007, 07:19 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Hi Tim, Great deductive reasoning there!! I'm right with ya! The idea of vestigial representation for the jingles in the crenallations makes a lot of sense and a more rudimentary example for 'field' use , cf. dress sword vs. combat sword. Like you, throat cutting and such grim matters is the least enjoyable facet of consideration in examining the plausible function of this piece for me. I do agree with Katana in his observation that an edge on the inside curve would seem more functional for such purpose. The sharpened outer edge suggests use in a chopping fashion rather than a drawcut. Returning to the size of this weapon again, it seems that in Asian regions the primary weapon was typically much as in many aboriginal areas, either the bow and arrow or spear. Edged weapons were typically secondary and used in close quarters melee. While not suggesting this piece would be in that category, it is simply a suggestion for consideration overall since we have examined so many aspects of the ceremonial /sacrificial potential due to similarity to ram dao. It would seem that ram dao, like the kora and other chopping type weapons, had combat counterparts, and like the kukri, could be used as a utilitarian implement as well. In discussions some time ago, as I mentioned concerning the Afghan lohar, the smaller size of these did not dismiss possible combative use especially in close quarters or as with Afghans in stealth attacks with easily concealed weapons. The British occupiers took a dim view of tribesmen carrying weapons. Something else that we need to look at is the interesting symbols or characters deeply stamped in the blade. Do these coincide with others that might be found on examples from suggested regions, like the knife you included earlier? What might these represent?

7th October 2007, 07:31 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Jim. It is too light to chop. That is why a went with the African razor it is like a razor. The Nepalese Ram Dao link is too much of a match to think of Africa any more for me right now. It would make an excellent slashing secondary weapon. Held with the blade facing you I think it could do a serious unpleasantness to man or beast. Or the other way for that matters.