A Bugis keris for comments

DAHenkel · 13th March 2005, 02:09 PM

Also, while we're at it, here are a few Riau keris as well.

Confused yet? Me too - but that's what's fun about these things. And I'm only including archetypal pieces here - If I sprang some of the wierder stuff on you you'd be even more confused.

Alam Shah · 13th March 2005, 02:42 PM

Thanks all. I having "indigestion" right now.

Will get back soon, i hope.
Dave, if you don't mind. Bring it on. May be confusing, but what the heck, it will be a good learning experience.

rasdan · 14th March 2005, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

Also, while we're at it, here are a few Riau keris as well.

Confused yet? Me too - but that's what's fun about these things. And I'm only including archetypal pieces here - If I sprang some of the wierder stuff on you you'd be even more confused.

Whoa, i'm a bit dizzy right now. It seems that there are no general rule of determining origin of Sumatran kerisses. Some bugis looks Malay, Minang etc. Heres some basic conclusion (on the dress) i can made:

1. The penghulu sampir originated in South Sumatra and the laquer is Palembang work

2. Sulawesi kerisses has a bit smaller sampir compared to penghulu ones and the batang is tapering with a flaring buntut.

3. East Sumatran kerisses are closer to their Sulawesi cousins, but have some other influence such as Minang etc. However flaring buntut is not a must.

4. Pendongkoks be it Long "necked" or the shorter "dulang" type can be either Sumatran or Sulawesi.

5. Riau kerises are generally of composite influences, many dont have flaring buntut.

If there is anything incorrect regarding the conclusions, can somebody correct me? Can i say that Sulawesi keris MUST have tapering batang?

Phew... and this is only regarding the dress, the blade is another thick chapter. hee..hee..

RSword, love your example, especially the one with the gold oversheath. The blade looks very close to Dave's giant bugis keris which is presumed originated in Sumbawa.

Alam Shah · 14th March 2005, 05:26 AM

Since we are still dicussing sampirs, can anyone tell me where does this sheath originated from?

rasdan · 14th March 2005, 07:05 AM

This also confuse me. It is stated as a bugis keris. Does Bugis kerisses have this kind of hilt?

Alam Shah · 14th March 2005, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rasdan

This also confuse me. It is stated as a bugis keris. Does Bugis kerisses have this kind of hilt?

Rasdan - The sampir looks Buginese, the hilt looks more Straits type sea sword handle. (Ref. Frey's The Kris -Kris Archives, pg.58).

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 08:25 AM

There are some general 'guidelines', but as people move around in the archipelago, ideas and aesthetics are exchanged and lines get blurred.

I remember asking Dave and Paul a few years back how do they tell the kerises apart and I would never get a straight answer because there were (are) none. After seeing more examples and always asking -- where did this keris supposedly come from. And mulling over the information, judging for ourselves whether the information is reasonable or not, we begin to form a basic construct of what makes a Sulawesi sampir Sulawesi, and what makes a Riau sampir Riau etc. Not a neat thing... and frustrating always. And nobody's totally sure, especially with people (me included) swapping handles and pendokos around. Sometimes, even sheaths get swapped.

There you have it -- the whole conundrum.

As to RSword's kerises, I think the first one is Straits, judging from the blade, which looks S. Sumatran, and judging from the pendok motifs -- the distinctive swirling vegetation motif. The pendoko looks S. Sumatran. Could it be Sumbawa -- Maybe.

On the second one, I think its Sulawesi. The sheath has dauns (or 'leaves', at the 2 top ends of the sheath) that do not curve inwards. Sulawesi sampir has this tendency to have dauns that curve outwards. Also, I'm not sure if I spy a 'bulge' at the throat of the sampir.

rahman · 14th March 2005, 08:25 AM

Since I am also confused, let me add to the general confusion:

Alam Shah - your hilt and mendak are Jogja. So is the pendok. The wranka I don't know

Pak Rasdan - methinks your hulu is Kaki Kuda typical of Sumatran pieces.

But I'm only a beginner...

BluErf · 14th March 2005, 08:30 AM

That hilt form on the gold keris shown by Rasdan -- I've seen it a similar type on Nias 'keris'. Nias 'keris' is not really a keris. The sheath has a elongated sampir, which I believe is supposed to represent oxen ears, while the blade can be a sewar or golok type of blade, mounted on a hilt like this.

But this gold keris is dressed new. Traditional aesthetics and rules may not apply. The "horse hoof" hilt is typically found on keris panjang, anak alang, and on Minang kerises -- those small luk blades.

13th March 2005, 02:09 PM	#1
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Also, while we're at it, here are a few Riau keris as well. Confused yet? Me too - but that's what's fun about these things. And I'm only including archetypal pieces here - If I sprang some of the wierder stuff on you you'd be even more confused. Attached Images

13th March 2005, 02:42 PM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Thanks all. I having "indigestion" right now. Will get back soon, i hope. Dave, if you don't mind. Bring it on. May be confusing, but what the heck, it will be a good learning experience. Last edited by Alam Shah; 13th March 2005 at 11:32 PM.

14th March 2005, 05:26 AM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Sampir... Since we are still dicussing sampirs, can anyone tell me where does this sheath originated from? Attached Images Last edited by Alam Shah; 14th March 2005 at 01:52 PM.

14th March 2005, 07:05 AM	#5
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	This also confuse me. It is stated as a bugis keris. Does Bugis kerisses have this kind of hilt? Attached Images

14th March 2005, 08:25 AM	#7
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	There are some general 'guidelines', but as people move around in the archipelago, ideas and aesthetics are exchanged and lines get blurred. I remember asking Dave and Paul a few years back how do they tell the kerises apart and I would never get a straight answer because there were (are) none. After seeing more examples and always asking -- where did this keris supposedly come from. And mulling over the information, judging for ourselves whether the information is reasonable or not, we begin to form a basic construct of what makes a Sulawesi sampir Sulawesi, and what makes a Riau sampir Riau etc. Not a neat thing... and frustrating always. And nobody's totally sure, especially with people (me included) swapping handles and pendokos around. Sometimes, even sheaths get swapped. There you have it -- the whole conundrum. As to RSword's kerises, I think the first one is Straits, judging from the blade, which looks S. Sumatran, and judging from the pendok motifs -- the distinctive swirling vegetation motif. The pendoko looks S. Sumatran. Could it be Sumbawa -- Maybe. On the second one, I think its Sulawesi. The sheath has dauns (or 'leaves', at the 2 top ends of the sheath) that do not curve inwards. Sulawesi sampir has this tendency to have dauns that curve outwards. Also, I'm not sure if I spy a 'bulge' at the throat of the sampir.

14th March 2005, 08:25 AM	#8
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Since I am also confused, let me add to the general confusion: Alam Shah - your hilt and mendak are Jogja. So is the pendok. The wranka I don't know Pak Rasdan - methinks your hulu is Kaki Kuda typical of Sumatran pieces. But I'm only a beginner...

14th March 2005, 08:30 AM	#9
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	That hilt form on the gold keris shown by Rasdan -- I've seen it a similar type on Nias 'keris'. Nias 'keris' is not really a keris. The sheath has a elongated sampir, which I believe is supposed to represent oxen ears, while the blade can be a sewar or golok type of blade, mounted on a hilt like this. But this gold keris is dressed new. Traditional aesthetics and rules may not apply. The "horse hoof" hilt is typically found on keris panjang, anak alang, and on Minang kerises -- those small luk blades.