Burmese, East Asian Mak Chopper?

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 07:13 PM

Good observation Katana. I had forgotten about the Bhuj Kutti, although I had considered the Malabar chopper in finding weapons comparable to this unusual example of Tim's. I think the 'Bhuj Kutti' ( often termed the elephant knife for the decorative motif which typically included elephant forms) is actually sort of a short hafted polearm, and the heavy chopper blade more comparable to heads of these type weapons.
I think Rhys Michael's note on the absence of the eye which typically is seen on ram dao and other sacrificial weapons associated with Kali is most interesting. It leads to asking what factors would determine variations in the application of this motif as it does seem that there are obviously instances of variation.
The link referring to the suastika is very interesting also, and I was unaware that this now unfortunately connoted device was also a symbol applied to Kali worship. In the instances I have seen it applied to weapons, which are seemingly rare, it has appeared on Chinese blades and in the instance I have seen, appeared in a linear panel of several suastikas. In this case it was a Ming dynasty blade and the device associated with the Buddhist application.

As Tim notes, it would be difficult to determine what factors are key in the application of certain symbolism on these weapons, but perspective on such elements are often key in more specific identification on them.

Best regards,
Jim

ariel · 6th October 2007, 09:12 PM

IMHO,
We need to consider its size as an important factor. A knife with a 22 cm blade of that configuration is either a utility knife or a ceremonial one. It could work as a Dahomey Amazons' "razor" ( and I shudder to think of its use

) but could not function as a Ram Dao unless the animals were very, very small. A symbol of a Ram Dao? A temple knife? A carving knife?

I just cannot see it as a weapon... Sorry.

Tim Simmons · 6th October 2007, 09:36 PM

Thank you ariel,

I have mentioned that this is not a chopper but a fine slashing blade with a degree of flex. It reminds me of those curved Buffalo skinning knives except the handle is longer and the whole thing is a lot more artful. It could be for slashing the throats of animals like an adult goat, thier throat
is no bigger than a mans. On another flight of fantasy a Thugge could easily slit your throat with it and do not try and tell me that they only killed by strangulation.

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 09:46 PM

I think Ariel makes a good point that I honestly had not been considering, this item really is relatively small for something used as a sacrificial implement. Even the tulwar hilted koras of Bengal used in sacrificing doves are of good size and heft.
Perhaps this may indeed be a votive or ceremonial piece that is an interpretive example of the larger weapons actually used?
That brings to mind discussions some time ago of the Afghan 'lohar' and whether its rather diminutive size would disqualify it as a practical weapon. Also there were claims that these functioned as utilitarian ice choppers etc. and it was suggested that these were likely modern versions of the earlier examples that probably did serve as weapons. The more modern examples were basically interpretations that served recalling the traditional form much as smaller examples of other weapons such as miniature swords used as letter openers and the like.

Obviously I am not implying such a mundane course for this intriguing example, but would consider the possibilities of more votive use as being plausible due to the size.

Like Lewis Carroll......curiouser and curioser!!!

Tim Simmons · 6th October 2007, 10:19 PM

I am not sure that 9" of flexable tempered steel drawn across a throat is votive.

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 10:25 PM

Uh! OK Tim..........that got my attention!!

not votive!!!
Back to where we left off.

All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 7th October 2007, 02:33 AM

Tim,
I found some more data in Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that supports what you have just noted and that smaller size does not eliminate the potential for sacrificial use. On p.70 he notes a 'matchu' sacrificial axe with a heavy cleaver like blade of 8". Another weapon shown as a sacrificial scythe has certain comparability and is also from southern India. There seems to be widely varying terminology depending on dialect and region.

Concerning the copper, on p.67, Elgood discusses iron and steel weapons and that thier polluting qualities are often mitigated by the use of copper or brass on the hilts.

It does seem that weaponry of Nepal and Bengal in many cases cross influence with of course diffusion to southern India also typical, as with most weapon forms in the subcontinent.

Tim Simmons · 7th October 2007, 03:18 PM

Thanks for bringing that to my attention Jim. There is also mention of a bill hook with a flexible blade on page 75 The blade is flexible so to activate jingles attached to the blade. Not to say this is the inspiration of the example I post but does hint at variation.
Further to Elgoods writings which are more concerned with courtly or "high church" in these matters. We should bare in mind the many aboriginals and more backwoods people like the Khond where in the first half of the 19th century the sacrifice of some poor devil is more than possible, having there head pulled back and throat cut

far from any high temple. The implements used may not be of a standard form one is often looking for. The crenellation on blades used outside of "high culture" could be a representation of the jingles on the temple blades? The jingles being a cleansing part of the ceremony in the temple.

I believe there is the occasionnal unpleasant sacrifice made now in modern times by what I imagine as rather disturbed devotees.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-7-2002_pg4_16

7th October 2007, 03:18 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Thanks for bringing that to my attention Jim. There is also mention of a bill hook with a flexible blade on page 75 The blade is flexible so to activate jingles attached to the blade. Not to say this is the inspiration of the example I post but does hint at variation. Further to Elgoods writings which are more concerned with courtly or "high church" in these matters. We should bare in mind the many aboriginals and more backwoods people like the Khond where in the first half of the 19th century the sacrifice of some poor devil is more than possible, having there head pulled back and throat cut far from any high temple. The implements used may not be of a standard form one is often looking for. The crenellation on blades used outside of "high culture" could be a representation of the jingles on the temple blades? The jingles being a cleansing part of the ceremony in the temple. I believe there is the occasionnal unpleasant sacrifice made now in modern times by what I imagine as rather disturbed devotees. http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-7-2002_pg4_16 Last edited by Tim Simmons; 7th October 2007 at 03:44 PM.

6th October 2007, 07:13 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Good observation Katana. I had forgotten about the Bhuj Kutti, although I had considered the Malabar chopper in finding weapons comparable to this unusual example of Tim's. I think the 'Bhuj Kutti' ( often termed the elephant knife for the decorative motif which typically included elephant forms) is actually sort of a short hafted polearm, and the heavy chopper blade more comparable to heads of these type weapons. I think Rhys Michael's note on the absence of the eye which typically is seen on ram dao and other sacrificial weapons associated with Kali is most interesting. It leads to asking what factors would determine variations in the application of this motif as it does seem that there are obviously instances of variation. The link referring to the suastika is very interesting also, and I was unaware that this now unfortunately connoted device was also a symbol applied to Kali worship. In the instances I have seen it applied to weapons, which are seemingly rare, it has appeared on Chinese blades and in the instance I have seen, appeared in a linear panel of several suastikas. In this case it was a Ming dynasty blade and the device associated with the Buddhist application. As Tim notes, it would be difficult to determine what factors are key in the application of certain symbolism on these weapons, but perspective on such elements are often key in more specific identification on them. Best regards, Jim

6th October 2007, 09:12 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	IMHO, We need to consider its size as an important factor. A knife with a 22 cm blade of that configuration is either a utility knife or a ceremonial one. It could work as a Dahomey Amazons' "razor" ( and I shudder to think of its use ) but could not function as a Ram Dao unless the animals were very, very small. A symbol of a Ram Dao? A temple knife? A carving knife? I just cannot see it as a weapon... Sorry.

6th October 2007, 09:36 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	Thank you ariel, I have mentioned that this is not a chopper but a fine slashing blade with a degree of flex. It reminds me of those curved Buffalo skinning knives except the handle is longer and the whole thing is a lot more artful. It could be for slashing the throats of animals like an adult goat, thier throat is no bigger than a mans. On another flight of fantasy a Thugge could easily slit your throat with it and do not try and tell me that they only killed by strangulation.

6th October 2007, 09:46 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	I think Ariel makes a good point that I honestly had not been considering, this item really is relatively small for something used as a sacrificial implement. Even the tulwar hilted koras of Bengal used in sacrificing doves are of good size and heft. Perhaps this may indeed be a votive or ceremonial piece that is an interpretive example of the larger weapons actually used? That brings to mind discussions some time ago of the Afghan 'lohar' and whether its rather diminutive size would disqualify it as a practical weapon. Also there were claims that these functioned as utilitarian ice choppers etc. and it was suggested that these were likely modern versions of the earlier examples that probably did serve as weapons. The more modern examples were basically interpretations that served recalling the traditional form much as smaller examples of other weapons such as miniature swords used as letter openers and the like. Obviously I am not implying such a mundane course for this intriguing example, but would consider the possibilities of more votive use as being plausible due to the size. Like Lewis Carroll......curiouser and curioser!!!

6th October 2007, 10:19 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,844	I am not sure that 9" of flexable tempered steel drawn across a throat is votive.

6th October 2007, 10:25 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Uh! OK Tim..........that got my attention!! not votive!!! Back to where we left off. All the best, Jim

7th October 2007, 02:33 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,194	Tim, I found some more data in Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Ritual" that supports what you have just noted and that smaller size does not eliminate the potential for sacrificial use. On p.70 he notes a 'matchu' sacrificial axe with a heavy cleaver like blade of 8". Another weapon shown as a sacrificial scythe has certain comparability and is also from southern India. There seems to be widely varying terminology depending on dialect and region. Concerning the copper, on p.67, Elgood discusses iron and steel weapons and that thier polluting qualities are often mitigated by the use of copper or brass on the hilts. It does seem that weaponry of Nepal and Bengal in many cases cross influence with of course diffusion to southern India also typical, as with most weapon forms in the subcontinent.