Help Identify - Chinese execution sword?

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2007, 05:13 AM

As Rsword suggests, this is an item probably put together during the Boxer Rebellion period, as forces of various legations there sought souveniers and exotica to recall this great adventure. Chinese martial artists used most dramatic looking weapons and theatrics to impress the foreign powers present as well as to intimidate and appear menacing. Sometimes gruesome executions did take place using such exaggerated weapons, but there was no prescribed weapon form for such events as far as I am aware.

In the Burton book, it seems in research some time ago I discovered that a number of the illustrations and referenced captions were actually in error, the whorled sword that Burton captioned as 'Chinese sabre knife' was actually a Dahomean hwi if I recall. In the list of sources in Burton's book he lists the reference "Illustrated History of Arms and Armour" by Auguste Demmin, London, 1877. With this he grumbles that "...the Oriental notices are deficient, and the translator has made them worse". Unfortunately, by using the 'Chinese sabre knife reference' from the Demmin book, he perpetuated the error.

DaveA · 3rd October 2007, 05:27 AM

Thank you both for your insights and a bit of history lesson! That is exactly why I jumped into this hobby. Greatly appreciated.

- David

RSWORD · 3rd October 2007, 03:03 PM

David

It is quite an enjoyable hobby and when that collecting bug hits you, watch out!

Jim McDougall · 3rd October 2007, 03:52 PM

You bet Dave!! and wisely said Rsword!!

Its a fantastic hobby, and exciting to hold and study actual pieces of history. The key if you are going to collect....learn as much as you can on the weapons you will be collecting. We can all attest to the trickery and deceit that plagues honest collectors and dealers, and the lessons usually arent cheap.
All the best,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 6th October 2007, 10:18 PM

In looking at this interesting item more, the riveted on brass device is very unusual. I really dont recall such things riveted to the blade in this fashion. Also, what symbolism might be present?
If I am not mistaken, the floral design may be five petaled lotus? In the depicted items I can make out what seems to be a bat? but not sure on the others.
Sometimes more review on such symbolic application might reveal more on the period and possibly group, region and intended use of the item. Although many such weapons are written off as tourist fare, many may have been actually ceremonial items for the secret organizations that often existed in China and for that matter elsewhere as the Chinese dispersed for work.

Can any of those whose field includes Chinese items say more on this device and the symbols?

DaveA · 6th October 2007, 11:02 PM

Here is a larger picture of the brass device on the sword (800 x 600).
The device is identical on both sides of the blade.

Is this blade a variant of a Quan Dao (Kwan Dao, Guan Dao) polearm?

Is this possibly a plum blossom shape? I'm told there is such a thing as a "plum blossom sword".

If one takes the center of the device to be "ground" and rotates the sword, then I can identify in three areas: leaves, a bird, and a deer. The other two are mysteries. My son says one looks like a city (mountains?) and the other a hat or helmet.

Ideas?

- Dave

Klas Larsson · 8th October 2007, 11:40 PM

The lower left animal is a bat, as suggsted above, and used as symbol of luck, because it has the sound "fu" just as the word for luck. It's often used on weapons, often on straight swords.

The ones you mention could maybe be associated with the Eight Immortals, popular taoist deities, you can google on that. I think at least the deer makes sense in that context, maybe the leaves and the bird to, not sure, check up. But the ear shaped thingy... a symbol of Mickey Mouse?

3rd October 2007, 05:27 AM	#2
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 415	Thank you! Thank you both for your insights and a bit of history lesson! That is exactly why I jumped into this hobby. Greatly appreciated. - David

6th October 2007, 11:02 PM	#6
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 415	larger picture of brass device Here is a larger picture of the brass device on the sword (800 x 600). The device is identical on both sides of the blade. Is this blade a variant of a Quan Dao (Kwan Dao, Guan Dao) polearm? Is this possibly a plum blossom shape? I'm told there is such a thing as a "plum blossom sword". If one takes the center of the device to be "ground" and rotates the sword, then I can identify in three areas: leaves, a bird, and a deer. The other two are mysteries. My son says one looks like a city (mountains?) and the other a hat or helmet. Ideas? - Dave Last edited by DaveA; 6th October 2007 at 11:07 PM. Reason: add detail

3rd October 2007, 05:13 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	As Rsword suggests, this is an item probably put together during the Boxer Rebellion period, as forces of various legations there sought souveniers and exotica to recall this great adventure. Chinese martial artists used most dramatic looking weapons and theatrics to impress the foreign powers present as well as to intimidate and appear menacing. Sometimes gruesome executions did take place using such exaggerated weapons, but there was no prescribed weapon form for such events as far as I am aware. In the Burton book, it seems in research some time ago I discovered that a number of the illustrations and referenced captions were actually in error, the whorled sword that Burton captioned as 'Chinese sabre knife' was actually a Dahomean hwi if I recall. In the list of sources in Burton's book he lists the reference "Illustrated History of Arms and Armour" by Auguste Demmin, London, 1877. With this he grumbles that "...the Oriental notices are deficient, and the translator has made them worse". Unfortunately, by using the 'Chinese sabre knife reference' from the Demmin book, he perpetuated the error.

3rd October 2007, 03:03 PM	#3
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,086	David It is quite an enjoyable hobby and when that collecting bug hits you, watch out!

3rd October 2007, 03:52 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	You bet Dave!! and wisely said Rsword!! Its a fantastic hobby, and exciting to hold and study actual pieces of history. The key if you are going to collect....learn as much as you can on the weapons you will be collecting. We can all attest to the trickery and deceit that plagues honest collectors and dealers, and the lessons usually arent cheap. All the best, Jim

6th October 2007, 10:18 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	In looking at this interesting item more, the riveted on brass device is very unusual. I really dont recall such things riveted to the blade in this fashion. Also, what symbolism might be present? If I am not mistaken, the floral design may be five petaled lotus? In the depicted items I can make out what seems to be a bat? but not sure on the others. Sometimes more review on such symbolic application might reveal more on the period and possibly group, region and intended use of the item. Although many such weapons are written off as tourist fare, many may have been actually ceremonial items for the secret organizations that often existed in China and for that matter elsewhere as the Chinese dispersed for work. Can any of those whose field includes Chinese items say more on this device and the symbols?

8th October 2007, 11:40 PM	#7
Klas Larsson Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 23	The lower left animal is a bat, as suggsted above, and used as symbol of luck, because it has the sound "fu" just as the word for luck. It's often used on weapons, often on straight swords. The ones you mention could maybe be associated with the Eight Immortals, popular taoist deities, you can google on that. I think at least the deer makes sense in that context, maybe the leaves and the bird to, not sure, check up. But the ear shaped thingy... a symbol of Mickey Mouse?