Images of the Orient-Weapons included-XVI century

fernando · 28th September 2007, 07:53 PM

More than one person made coments about the flowers in the paintings, as a potential track to identify the places and also its possible simbology in the arms decorations used in the period.
Herewith some thaughts and also parts translated from the book introduction, with (or without) references in the area.

No mention in the legends or in texts about flowers. The only mention is on image 17, where this book introducer compares this flower with vegetable ornamentation on images 4, 7, 9, 10 and 12.
The additional texts, basically used for confirmation (or some discrepancy) of the codice original author assumptions, is largely dedicated to the
way these Peoples usually dressed and secondly to the arms they used, apart from lateral contextual events.
Therefore flowers are used as landscape, and not necessarily belonging to Peoples lands in question ( my saying). According to this book introduction, one of the discussions had by the various experts was, besides whether the author of the folios did them to satisfy someone's order or by his own iniative, and another was where or from where he has made them. One assumed fact is that he forcingly has been a determined time around the area, as this work could only be made at sight. Schurhammer, the guy that took the codice from oblivion, opines that the greatest part was painted in Goa and Cambaia, but the author must have also been in the Malabar, and most probably in Ormuz and Malaca, which is pertinent, given the relative facility whith which Portuguese dislocated trough the Orient. On the other hand he wouldn't need, so to say, to go out of Goa to realize his work as, by one side, there were Kafres, Arabians, Abexins, Guzerates and other Peoples to the service of Portuguese in India and, by other side, merchants from the
most diverse nations of the Orient, aproached the main trade centers. Varthema informs that right in the beginning of the XVI century there was
in Calicut merchants not only from Turkey, Siria, Arabia Felix, Abissinia and Persia, but also from Guzerate, Malabar, Ceylon, Samatra, Pegu and Siam.

fernando · 13th April 2008, 07:14 PM

I have just received a copy of Hindu Arms and Ritual, by Elgood ... better late than never

Among several mentions to the Portuguese presence in India, a specific quotation on this Casanatense codice can be read in page 17 of Elgood's work ... something i would never guess.
... And i thaught i was breaking the news ...result of my illiteracy

olikara · 14th April 2008, 10:37 AM

Fernando,

It is true that the Casanatense codice was not exactly 'discovered' by you.

However it is you who brought it forward to the forums. In fact I found it so useful that I added a separate column to your excel sheet where I filled in my remarks about each folio I found interesting. I was able to fill in several gaps there as I have the advantage of being in India where many of the folios were based on.

Your post may not have been a discovery but it sure was a revelation!

Nidhi

fernando · 14th April 2008, 10:56 AM

Thank you for you nice words, Nidhin

VANDOO · 14th April 2008, 04:58 PM

A VERY INTERESTING LOT OF PHOTO'S I ENJOYED LOOKING AT THEM

.
IN YOUR PHOTO #1XX1 THE WARRIOR IS SHOWN WITH A KERIS AND A BLOWGUN WITH DARTS HELD IN HIS HAND. THE DARTS ARE MADE TO LOOK MORE LIKE SMALL ARROWS THAN THEY PROBABLY WOULD IN REALITY BUT IF THE ARTIST HAD NOT DONE IT THAT WAY I PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT. THE UPPER END ALSO IS EXPANDED FOR A BETTER SEAL WHEN BLOWING AS FOUND IN SOME TYPES OF BLOWGUN. I LOOKED AT THE ARTISTS EXAMPLES OF BOWS BEING USED AND THAT HELPED ELIMINATE THE POSSIBILITY OF IT BEING A BOW AND ARROWS.

IN ANOTHER PICTURE XV11 THERE IS A STRANGE ITEM, THERE IS A LADY ON A HORSE AND A SERVANT IS STANDING BEHIND THE HORSE CARRYING A STRANGE THING THAT KIND OF LOOKS LIKE A LARGE AX BLADE. PERHAPS THE DEADLY AX PURSE

fernando · 14th April 2008, 11:03 PM

Thanks Barry.
In watercolour VXXI, depicting the Dachens from the island of Sumatra, the author's legend mentions the use of blowguns with small poisonous arrows.
So (at least) in his perspective the arrows were intentionally small. Other period authors included in the same book confirm the "herbed" arrows, but don't refer their dimensions.
In watercolour XIV, while the author's legend only refers they are Turkmen from Persia ( Ormuz ), under the kingdom of Xeque Ismael, other period authors mention the bravery of the women, who were better riders than many men and that, these Moors from Ormuz were accompanied by pages who, by their state of honour, carried barrels of water or algarafas ( Arabic to old Portuguese for bottle ) adorned with silver. It all indicates that the strange things painted by the author are water containers.
Fernando

13th April 2008, 07:14 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Holly ignorance I have just received a copy of Hindu Arms and Ritual, by Elgood ... better late than never Among several mentions to the Portuguese presence in India, a specific quotation on this Casanatense codice can be read in page 17 of Elgood's work ... something i would never guess. ... And i thaught i was breaking the news ...result of my illiteracy

14th April 2008, 10:37 AM	#3
olikara Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: India Posts: 101	Very Useful Fernando, It is true that the Casanatense codice was not exactly 'discovered' by you. However it is you who brought it forward to the forums. In fact I found it so useful that I added a separate column to your excel sheet where I filled in my remarks about each folio I found interesting. I was able to fill in several gaps there as I have the advantage of being in India where many of the folios were based on. Your post may not have been a discovery but it sure was a revelation! Nidhi

28th September 2007, 07:53 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Flora More than one person made coments about the flowers in the paintings, as a potential track to identify the places and also its possible simbology in the arms decorations used in the period. Herewith some thaughts and also parts translated from the book introduction, with (or without) references in the area. No mention in the legends or in texts about flowers. The only mention is on image 17, where this book introducer compares this flower with vegetable ornamentation on images 4, 7, 9, 10 and 12. The additional texts, basically used for confirmation (or some discrepancy) of the codice original author assumptions, is largely dedicated to the way these Peoples usually dressed and secondly to the arms they used, apart from lateral contextual events. Therefore flowers are used as landscape, and not necessarily belonging to Peoples lands in question ( my saying). According to this book introduction, one of the discussions had by the various experts was, besides whether the author of the folios did them to satisfy someone's order or by his own iniative, and another was where or from where he has made them. One assumed fact is that he forcingly has been a determined time around the area, as this work could only be made at sight. Schurhammer, the guy that took the codice from oblivion, opines that the greatest part was painted in Goa and Cambaia, but the author must have also been in the Malabar, and most probably in Ormuz and Malaca, which is pertinent, given the relative facility whith which Portuguese dislocated trough the Orient. On the other hand he wouldn't need, so to say, to go out of Goa to realize his work as, by one side, there were Kafres, Arabians, Abexins, Guzerates and other Peoples to the service of Portuguese in India and, by other side, merchants from the most diverse nations of the Orient, aproached the main trade centers. Varthema informs that right in the beginning of the XVI century there was in Calicut merchants not only from Turkey, Siria, Arabia Felix, Abissinia and Persia, but also from Guzerate, Malabar, Ceylon, Samatra, Pegu and Siam.

14th April 2008, 10:56 AM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you for you nice words, Nidhin

14th April 2008, 04:58 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY INTERESTING LOT OF PHOTO'S I ENJOYED LOOKING AT THEM . IN YOUR PHOTO #1XX1 THE WARRIOR IS SHOWN WITH A KERIS AND A BLOWGUN WITH DARTS HELD IN HIS HAND. THE DARTS ARE MADE TO LOOK MORE LIKE SMALL ARROWS THAN THEY PROBABLY WOULD IN REALITY BUT IF THE ARTIST HAD NOT DONE IT THAT WAY I PROBABLY WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO FIGURE IT OUT. THE UPPER END ALSO IS EXPANDED FOR A BETTER SEAL WHEN BLOWING AS FOUND IN SOME TYPES OF BLOWGUN. I LOOKED AT THE ARTISTS EXAMPLES OF BOWS BEING USED AND THAT HELPED ELIMINATE THE POSSIBILITY OF IT BEING A BOW AND ARROWS. IN ANOTHER PICTURE XV11 THERE IS A STRANGE ITEM, THERE IS A LADY ON A HORSE AND A SERVANT IS STANDING BEHIND THE HORSE CARRYING A STRANGE THING THAT KIND OF LOOKS LIKE A LARGE AX BLADE. PERHAPS THE DEADLY AX PURSE

14th April 2008, 11:03 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks Barry. In watercolour VXXI, depicting the Dachens from the island of Sumatra, the author's legend mentions the use of blowguns with small poisonous arrows. So (at least) in his perspective the arrows were intentionally small. Other period authors included in the same book confirm the "herbed" arrows, but don't refer their dimensions. In watercolour XIV, while the author's legend only refers they are Turkmen from Persia ( Ormuz ), under the kingdom of Xeque Ismael, other period authors mention the bravery of the women, who were better riders than many men and that, these Moors from Ormuz were accompanied by pages who, by their state of honour, carried barrels of water or algarafas ( Arabic to old Portuguese for bottle ) adorned with silver. It all indicates that the strange things painted by the author are water containers. Fernando