Seven spears from same origin?

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2007, 11:38 PM

I think that the lack of a shaft or evidence of having been shafted (uh, been there..done that!!

may indicate these had been stored in one of the arsenals in the Sudan, perhaps Khartoum. During the Mahdist period in the Sudan, huge numbers of weapons were accumulated to supply the massive forces of the Mahdi. If these were not mounted, perhaps that would suggest they had not been with the weapons of a particular warrior after all.

Interesting material on the Roman spears and shows how even ancient concepts were still applied to 'modern' warfare in tribal cultures. While using ancient weaponry and tactics against then modern technology, these warriors were not only formidable, but extremely deadly. The note on the incapacitation of the victim with spear imbedded is well placed, and the wound itself even without the inconvenience of protruding shaft seems like it would preclude any further combat from that individual.

So the spears were used in weddings/marraiges? Ah ha! Well , I guess we could probably get lots of mileage on that note

but I'll leave well enough alone...I honestly had not heard of weapons in dowries, usually cattle or livestock, but very plausible idea.

VANDOO · 24th September 2007, 03:21 AM

A VERY NICE GROUP SHOWING SEVERAL FORMS ALL WELL MADE. TWO OF THE POINTS HAVE DAMMAGE TO THE BARBS THE ONE SECOND FROM THE RIGHT ESPECIALLY , SO THEY MAY HAVE SEEN USE. THESE COME ACROSS AS BEAUTIFUL TO ME DESPITE THEIR SPIKES BUT IF ONE WAS THREATENING ME WOULD NO LONGER LOOK PRETTY

kronckew · 24th September 2007, 07:04 AM

there was an earlier post here on a similar barbed spear, i recall, where we discussed it's possible mahdi-ist origins, i remember posting a reference to a article, written by winston churchill - who was at the battle of omdurman as a cavalryman - with reference to the 'fishhook spears' - and another about medical treatment after the battle and how the doctors had difficulty removing the spears from wounded soldiers because of the wicked barbs on them.....

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2007, 06:32 AM

Kronckew,
I'd sure like to find that reference!!! Anybody out there know where we might locate this?

kronckew · 1st October 2007, 08:00 AM

the reference to 'fishhook spears' stuck in the bodies of returning wounded is of course in winston's article referenced above, i'm having fun re-finding the medical reference, but here are a few more:

http://www.michaelstevenson.com/africanart/essay.htm

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...649D94699ED7CF

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~th...ancers1898.htm

one there makes reference to long leaf shaped blades and barbed, fishing spears being collected to arm the mahdi's sudanese...interesting.

another of them while written supposedly about the gulf war, is mostly about african weapons as 19c. war trophies brought back by soldiers and the lucrative trading in them there which sparked a local market, so many of them we find in estates in the UK may have been made 'after'. sobering thought.

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2007, 08:25 AM

Excellent!! Thank you very much Kronckew!!
Jim

24th September 2007, 07:04 AM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	there was an earlier post here on a similar barbed spear, i recall, where we discussed it's possible mahdi-ist origins, i remember posting a reference to a article, written by winston churchill - who was at the battle of omdurman as a cavalryman - with reference to the 'fishhook spears' - and another about medical treatment after the battle and how the doctors had difficulty removing the spears from wounded soldiers because of the wicked barbs on them..... Last edited by kronckew; 24th September 2007 at 07:17 AM.

1st October 2007, 08:00 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,259	the reference to 'fishhook spears' stuck in the bodies of returning wounded is of course in winston's article referenced above, i'm having fun re-finding the medical reference, but here are a few more: http://www.michaelstevenson.com/africanart/essay.htm http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstrac...649D94699ED7CF http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~th...ancers1898.htm one there makes reference to long leaf shaped blades and barbed, fishing spears being collected to arm the mahdi's sudanese...interesting. another of them while written supposedly about the gulf war, is mostly about african weapons as 19c. war trophies brought back by soldiers and the lucrative trading in them there which sparked a local market, so many of them we find in estates in the UK may have been made 'after'. sobering thought. Last edited by kronckew; 1st October 2007 at 08:22 AM.

23rd September 2007, 11:38 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	I think that the lack of a shaft or evidence of having been shafted (uh, been there..done that!! may indicate these had been stored in one of the arsenals in the Sudan, perhaps Khartoum. During the Mahdist period in the Sudan, huge numbers of weapons were accumulated to supply the massive forces of the Mahdi. If these were not mounted, perhaps that would suggest they had not been with the weapons of a particular warrior after all. Interesting material on the Roman spears and shows how even ancient concepts were still applied to 'modern' warfare in tribal cultures. While using ancient weaponry and tactics against then modern technology, these warriors were not only formidable, but extremely deadly. The note on the incapacitation of the victim with spear imbedded is well placed, and the wound itself even without the inconvenience of protruding shaft seems like it would preclude any further combat from that individual. So the spears were used in weddings/marraiges? Ah ha! Well , I guess we could probably get lots of mileage on that note but I'll leave well enough alone...I honestly had not heard of weapons in dowries, usually cattle or livestock, but very plausible idea.

24th September 2007, 03:21 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY NICE GROUP SHOWING SEVERAL FORMS ALL WELL MADE. TWO OF THE POINTS HAVE DAMMAGE TO THE BARBS THE ONE SECOND FROM THE RIGHT ESPECIALLY , SO THEY MAY HAVE SEEN USE. THESE COME ACROSS AS BEAUTIFUL TO ME DESPITE THEIR SPIKES BUT IF ONE WAS THREATENING ME WOULD NO LONGER LOOK PRETTY

1st October 2007, 06:32 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Kronckew, I'd sure like to find that reference!!! Anybody out there know where we might locate this?

1st October 2007, 08:25 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Excellent!! Thank you very much Kronckew!! Jim