Seven spears from same origin?

fernando · 22nd September 2007, 06:46 PM

Thank you Tim,
I should have said in the first place that i didn't yet buy these pieces.
The seller opens his mouth too wide, i think the price he wants is implausible.
I will send you an email with the figures envolved, for your coment, if you don't mind

On the other hand, if i only buy one or two, i loose the sense of collection, as you well pinpoint yourself.
Just please tell me if it is a pitty i let them go

Are they hunting, fighting or ( also ) ceremonial ? i put it that way because of the intense barbing, more than enough to do the actual job, i would say?
Thanks again
fernando

dennee · 22nd September 2007, 06:57 PM

Knowing next to nothing about African spears, they may be ceremonial, but they seem to be at least derived from hunting types because of the barbs. One would generally not want one's spear to get caught in a human opponent during combat (as opposed to an arrow or even javelin perhaps), but if stuck in a severely wounded large animal, that animal could be tracked to its death or dispatched with a coup de grace whne weakened. One could presumably retrieve the spear head by cutting it out during butchering.

Freddy · 22nd September 2007, 07:02 PM

As Tim said, these spearpoints are from the Northeastern border of Congo. This is the Ubangi-area. Main tribes are the Zande and Mangbetu.

These spearpoints are fitted to light shaft and then used as throwing spears. In fact, they are harpoons as the barbs prevent the spearpoint from slipping from the animal's body.

In the book 'IJzerwerk van Centraal-Afrika' (Ironwork from Central Africa) by H. Westerdijk, the authors states that there are two types of harpoonspears : those with a fixed point and those with a loose point. The ones with a loose spearpoint (although fastened to the shaft by means of a cord) are only used for the hunt.
The ones with a fixed spearpoint were also used for war.

The spearpoints you showed are of the last type, so used for hunting as well as for war.

fernando · 22nd September 2007, 07:58 PM

Thank you Dennee
My question was more towards the quantity of barbs. Usualy harpoon like devices have much less quantity of them, i would think, and still they do the job.
So i thaught that the exuberant amount of barbs would be somehow for exhibiting.

Thanks a lot for your qualifyed input, Freddy. But as i told Tim, the price the seller wants for them is unreasonable, so i am afraid i will have to let them go.
Dank u wel
fernando

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2007, 08:16 PM

These appear very similar to spears of the Mahdist period in the Sudan. According to information from a large Sudanese collection, each man was supposed to carry at least three spears into battle. One of 8-10 ft. long as well as two shorter ones. The short ones were hurled from close range before assault with the long spear.
Since the shorter ones were to be thrown, thus no longer required by the warrior, it would make sense that these vicious barbed features would be intended to disable the victim because they could not be withdrawn.

It seems that in a discussion I once had with a young man from Darfur, he told me that more spears were required to be carried by each warrior, as many as 6 or 7 I think. It was not clear however what size these would have been. The cavalrymen of the Baggara tribe had leather quivers at the horses side filled with spears, but no numbers are given.

katana · 22nd September 2007, 08:50 PM

Hi Fernando,
good find

I really like this type of spear.....although I would not want to be on the 'receiving' end of one

I was lucky enough to find 3 complete spears late 19c/ early 20th...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=zande

Regards David

fernando · 22nd September 2007, 11:15 PM

Thanks for the dinamic input, Jim.
This means that this set of seven blades, all having parts of identical pattern, could have belonged to one same warrior ?!

Hi David
And i thaught all these barbs were to tickle the opponents

Thanks for the link with your nice examples.
This could mean that the seven units posted here could also be from the XIX century ? A coment nobody brought in, yet. As allways, age is of primary importance for me.

David, do you remember how much you have paid for your three blades ?
You could tell me that by PM or email ?

Thanks in advance

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2007, 11:57 PM

Hi Fernando,
Im glad I could add something to the great input already in on these. Its always amazing how much knowledge is out there and much of it very specialized. I was lucky to recollect seeing these nasty looking things in a Sudanese collection during intense research on kaskaras a while back.

The concepts presented concerning hunting weapons is well placed, and I believe I recall some very long 'arrows' with such features used in the Philippines, possibly Igorot, but I cannot claim that with any certainty. I leave that to those in that field of study.

The use of barbs on projectile weapons has been discussed before on harpoons, which were mentioned here also, and they were indeed a means of securing the prey. In study of American Indian arrows, it is noted that heads on hunting arrows were deliberately loosely mounted as described .

The comments on elaborate design or intimidating features on African weapons is certainly well placed also. In many instances there are weapons in many tribal regions intended to appear terrifying or threatening. Such 'psychological warfare' was often an important element of tribal warfare and traditional culture in the assertion of power and control.

Really nice pieces, and indeed might have belonged to a single warrior, so I can agree with wanting to keep them together.

I would be very surprised if these were not 19th c. and as noted, of the Mahdist period.

All the best,
Jim

22nd September 2007, 06:46 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Tim, I should have said in the first place that i didn't yet buy these pieces. The seller opens his mouth too wide, i think the price he wants is implausible. I will send you an email with the figures envolved, for your coment, if you don't mind On the other hand, if i only buy one or two, i loose the sense of collection, as you well pinpoint yourself. Just please tell me if it is a pitty i let them go Are they hunting, fighting or ( also ) ceremonial ? i put it that way because of the intense barbing, more than enough to do the actual job, i would say? Thanks again fernando

22nd September 2007, 06:57 PM	#2
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	Knowing next to nothing about African spears, they may be ceremonial, but they seem to be at least derived from hunting types because of the barbs. One would generally not want one's spear to get caught in a human opponent during combat (as opposed to an arrow or even javelin perhaps), but if stuck in a severely wounded large animal, that animal could be tracked to its death or dispatched with a coup de grace whne weakened. One could presumably retrieve the spear head by cutting it out during butchering.

22nd September 2007, 07:02 PM	#3
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	As Tim said, these spearpoints are from the Northeastern border of Congo. This is the Ubangi-area. Main tribes are the Zande and Mangbetu. These spearpoints are fitted to light shaft and then used as throwing spears. In fact, they are harpoons as the barbs prevent the spearpoint from slipping from the animal's body. In the book 'IJzerwerk van Centraal-Afrika' (Ironwork from Central Africa) by H. Westerdijk, the authors states that there are two types of harpoonspears : those with a fixed point and those with a loose point. The ones with a loose spearpoint (although fastened to the shaft by means of a cord) are only used for the hunt. The ones with a fixed spearpoint were also used for war. The spearpoints you showed are of the last type, so used for hunting as well as for war.

22nd September 2007, 07:58 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thank you Dennee My question was more towards the quantity of barbs. Usualy harpoon like devices have much less quantity of them, i would think, and still they do the job. So i thaught that the exuberant amount of barbs would be somehow for exhibiting. Thanks a lot for your qualifyed input, Freddy. But as i told Tim, the price the seller wants for them is unreasonable, so i am afraid i will have to let them go. Dank u wel fernando

22nd September 2007, 08:16 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,581	These appear very similar to spears of the Mahdist period in the Sudan. According to information from a large Sudanese collection, each man was supposed to carry at least three spears into battle. One of 8-10 ft. long as well as two shorter ones. The short ones were hurled from close range before assault with the long spear. Since the shorter ones were to be thrown, thus no longer required by the warrior, it would make sense that these vicious barbed features would be intended to disable the victim because they could not be withdrawn. It seems that in a discussion I once had with a young man from Darfur, he told me that more spears were required to be carried by each warrior, as many as 6 or 7 I think. It was not clear however what size these would have been. The cavalrymen of the Baggara tribe had leather quivers at the horses side filled with spears, but no numbers are given.

22nd September 2007, 08:50 PM	#6
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Fernando, good find I really like this type of spear.....although I would not want to be on the 'receiving' end of one I was lucky enough to find 3 complete spears late 19c/ early 20th... http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=zande Regards David

22nd September 2007, 11:15 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Thanks for the dinamic input, Jim. This means that this set of seven blades, all having parts of identical pattern, could have belonged to one same warrior ?! Hi David And i thaught all these barbs were to tickle the opponents Thanks for the link with your nice examples. This could mean that the seven units posted here could also be from the XIX century ? A coment nobody brought in, yet. As allways, age is of primary importance for me. David, do you remember how much you have paid for your three blades ? You could tell me that by PM or email ? Thanks in advance

22nd September 2007, 11:57 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,581	Hi Fernando, Im glad I could add something to the great input already in on these. Its always amazing how much knowledge is out there and much of it very specialized. I was lucky to recollect seeing these nasty looking things in a Sudanese collection during intense research on kaskaras a while back. The concepts presented concerning hunting weapons is well placed, and I believe I recall some very long 'arrows' with such features used in the Philippines, possibly Igorot, but I cannot claim that with any certainty. I leave that to those in that field of study. The use of barbs on projectile weapons has been discussed before on harpoons, which were mentioned here also, and they were indeed a means of securing the prey. In study of American Indian arrows, it is noted that heads on hunting arrows were deliberately loosely mounted as described . The comments on elaborate design or intimidating features on African weapons is certainly well placed also. In many instances there are weapons in many tribal regions intended to appear terrifying or threatening. Such 'psychological warfare' was often an important element of tribal warfare and traditional culture in the assertion of power and control. Really nice pieces, and indeed might have belonged to a single warrior, so I can agree with wanting to keep them together. I would be very surprised if these were not 19th c. and as noted, of the Mahdist period. All the best, Jim